New build, new thoughts to Tanking,

[Chaszar]

..........I am a newb for TANK.

I have read thru the many, very good guides throughout the game eras, 1. x.............

I have a nice DPS warrior that is liked in groups and raids; and used quite often.

I have taken a fancy to wanting to explore a TANK role.

I also do not fancy Shields so DW or, particularly, 2H 'r draw my attention.

I have played MMO's since my days in EQ1, but that was with the 'push auto attack ' and maybe move around .........I have seen in raids in Rift, what looks like loads of very different classes performing Tank roles, including Tanks, who seem to move around alot, without all that seeming control of the boss - whether that is all the mechanics built into the mob or not, Im not sure, nor saying anything about skillsets.

While low level, with caster mobs and range mobs I found they delay alot of their casting and archering if stepped into, but seldom if ever see this done on bosses.

There is much discussion on the threads and in guides about Block, Cinderhelm has a very good breakdown about it:

- Shields are the 'only' thing to block with , excluding what deflection does from rogues, or reflection from casters

- Shields must be equipped to use block, and have the +block applied - ?even though gear has +block, and in reality, Plate is its own blocking agent, so the Block on the gear should be applicable just from being worn, not just when a shield is used? - I know this game is not RL.

- Rogues can tank, but they don't use shields, they can gather stats for deflect, and there is gear out there with it. Does that deflect only work if worn by a Rogue?

My point is, with the statements above, my subject build has NO BLOCK abilities in it; I wanted to try things out that way.

Here it is : http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1c....VzmthkkNbk.-6

I wonder if there could be a discussion from everyone, especially those who put so much time into their guided, and TANKS still remaining in game about this prospective build - I plan to take my time with it, walking thru dungeons, with whoever brave souls who wish to accompany me and see if it is worthwhile.

[TheGrinnz]

Deflect only works for rogues. You cannot expect to tank anything except content you massively outgear without a shield. Block (as well as several block-based abilities) does not work without a shield equipped.

[Chaszar]

So......with min. in block for Pally, this look better?

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1c...thzkI0k.x0o.-6

[Muspel]

I'm confused with what you're trying to do. Is there a reason that the standard 38 reaver build doesn't work for you?

[BrownsMageNerfDelivery]

TBH, this build is likely to drive people to "randomly" disconnect from a dungeon so you are forced to votekick them.

I assume you are going for an avoidance type tank, but due to caps on avoidance ratings, mitigation tanks are really the only effective tanks. You simply can't get your dodge/parry high enough to make it worthwhile to use an avoidance tank.

At present (and I know Sebb was rightfully complaining about this), the only viable warrior tank build is 38 reaver with 20 wl/8 pally (for max mit) or 28 VK (for max threat gen). Warriors simply can't effectively tank with a dual-wield/2h setup (unless they significantly outgear the instance and are bored).

(And if this is a troll, 2/10).

[Hotter]

Well... there are many 'viable' tank specs besides the cookie cutter reaver...

That said, sounds like the op wants to be a rogue. Create an alt and tank without a shield, yo.

[Chaszar]

I am not trying to be a rogue in warrior's clothing, I have rogues and like them as they are.

I am not trying to invent something new, as I said I would like input, if possible......yes I have seen that the 38 RV is the 'one'. And I do read alot of Sebb and other very good guides, still would like input.

Then why is there 51 available points to use in wl , to mix/match?

TheGrinnz said : deflect only works for rogues, then why is it on warrior gear ( just because its lumped as war/rogue?)........senseless gear delineation.

I remarked that gear has +Block, and understand that as it goes in the game, Block is only an applicable ability with Shield equipped - why? we wear plate, it has +block on our gear, why isn't block accounted thru the gearing as deflect is for the rogues with the deflect in their gear.

I hope any of this is making sense.

Im not trying to chase people from groups.........I am not trying to make a new 'cookie cutter', Im trying to find something NOT cookie-cutter.

[BrownsMageNerfDelivery]

I am not trying to be a rogue in warrior's clothing, I have rogues and like them as they are.

I am not trying to invent something new, as I said I would like input, if possible......yes I have seen that the 38 RV is the 'one'. And I do read alot of Sebb and other very good guides, still would like input.

Then why is there 51 available points to use in wl , to mix/match?

TheGrinnz said : deflect only works for rogues, then why is it on warrior gear ( just because its lumped as war/rogue?)........senseless gear delineation.

I remarked that gear has +Block, and understand that as it goes in the game, Block is only an applicable ability with Shield equipped - why? we wear plate, it has +block on our gear, why isn't block accounted thru the gearing as deflect is for the rogues with the deflect in their gear.

I hope any of this is making sense.

Im not trying to chase people from groups.........I am not trying to make a new 'cookie cutter', Im trying to find something NOT cookie-cutter.

Unfortunately, warrior tanking (as Sebb has said) is kind of cookie-cutterish if you expect to survive and hold aggro unless you outgear an instance.

Deflect should not be on warrior gear. Deflect was added on rogue tank gear and new fire and earth lesser essences were specifically itemized for rogues since they previously only gained deflect via dexterity (and before that didn't even have Deflect).

I'm not being "discouraging" -- I'm simply saying that a good portion of people who you end up in random groups with will not have the patience to bear with you while you test some radically new build.

[Hotter]

Meh you can survive and hold aggro fine without reaver. Don't believe the hype.

[Chaszar]

Thanks for the response BrownsMageNerfDelivery, discussion is what I am after, and I am not discouraged.

As I said, I am working on building the Tank; nothing is set in granite, except my mindset of being anti-cookie-cutter, to varying degrees.

Above you also said something about Avoidance, and I hadn't thought of that, so with my change to 8 points in Pal, for some block, am I directing away from the Avoidance somewhat, to something better useable?

I have been reading Sebb's guides etc. and keep up as best I can, but playing and working out this and my other toons its good mental work. I am not great with the math's of some of the breakdowns in some guides, and reread them carefully to better understand the numeric 'whys' .

I could have sworn one of the older guides had a higher WL spec in it, but don't know what happened to it - some of those WL abilities for the group/raid/warrior Tanking sound interesting to have, and is one reason I am looking at that type of spec - useable in raiding yet to see , if my guild lets me even OT anything.....however the threat limits I am understanding, I think....

Anyone else for this discussion - I do appreciate input.....learning is what I do, before I even play a class., or bring a spec out for my friends and others to play around with.

I figure I have time to play around with whatever, 50 gold isn't anything to respec 1 role, over and over, now that I have spent all the plat to train practically every trainable category out there for warriors; my DPS warrior is set in stone, I will not change him, and use him all the time in raids. 2 other roles are firm in trial mode,with mindsetting my fingers and keybinds for their roles with a pvp'r and a 'what the hell' spec.

Please, discuss with me....my skin is thick , I do not bruise easy, and I don't mind leets expressing themselves if they can do so with some form of logic, not leetism.

[Iri]

The problem with your concept is that, in attempting to avoid cookie-cutter specs, you're actually attempting to tank without utilizing a mechanic that is central to warrior tanking. Warriors are designed to tank with shields. Block is the best mitigation stat in the game for warriors, and it only works with a shield. How you feel about whether that's fair or sensible doesn't really matter... that's just a fact of the game. If you try to tank without actually using this mechanic that is core to warrior tanking, you will fail. That's all people are trying to warn you about.

[Chaszar]

The problem with your concept is that, in attempting to avoid cookie-cutter specs, you're actually attempting to tank without utilizing a mechanic that is central to warrior tanking. Warriors are designed to tank with shields. Block is the best mitigation stat in the game for warriors, and it only works with a shield. How you feel about whether that's fair or sensible doesn't really matter... that's just a fact of the game. If you try to tank without actually using this mechanic that is core to warrior tanking, you will fail. That's all people are trying to warn you about.

So, I took Block selections and have a shield in use when it requires it, are you saying I will only be useful with a shield equipped all the time? Again, no offense, but required mechanic? So, I might as well go heavy into a shield using spec to be any use to raid? - therefore, losing out on some of RV quality tank power, and WL abilities?

[Muspel]

So, I took Block selections and have a shield in use when it requires it, are you saying I will only be useful with a shield equipped all the time? Again, no offense, but required mechanic? So, I might as well go heavy into a shield using spec to be any use to raid? - therefore, losing out on some of RV quality tank power, and WL abilities?

You cannot block attacks without a shield equipped. You also lose a huge amount of armor.

For a warrior, tanking without a shield means that you're not actually a tank. You're a DPS who generates a lot of aggro and then dies because you can't survive the boss. There is no way around this. No clever talent build, no breaking the mold, no "avoiding cookie-cutter", no unique use of abilities that will let you get anywhere near the required mitigation to tank anything remotely challenging.

If you want to tank without using a shield, then play a rogue (there's a guide for that in my signature). If you want to tank as a warrior or a cleric, then you'll be using a shield. Period. Attempting to do otherwise will get you laughed out of most groups-- much like if a cleric tried to melee DPS in a warden/purifier spec while unarmed.

[BrownsMageNerfDelivery]

So, I took Block selections and have a shield in use when it requires it, are you saying I will only be useful with a shield equipped all the time? Again, no offense, but required mechanic? So, I might as well go heavy into a shield using spec to be any use to raid? - therefore, losing out on some of RV quality tank power, and WL abilities?

What WL abilities do you miss with 38 reaver/20 wl/8 pal? You lose Assault Command (no problem, that's covered by the archon). No Rallying Command (only time I've really noticed Rallying is if there's an off-tank). No No Permission to Die (it's a nice idea, but there are adequate cooldowns as is).

The problem is that Rift uses a two-roll system that values mitigation via block and places less of an emphasis on avoidance. Perhaps this will change in expansion, perhaps not.

A lot of this depends on gear though. I know some tanks who tank in a hybrid spec so there's more DPS and we can clear low-level content quickly. But when **** hits the fan, it's sword and board time (mitigation from block AND the armor for passive mitigation).

Yes, there isn't a lot of tanking variety. But since people haven't been vocal about changing it, it's not broke and thus isn't getting "fixed."

[Chaszar]

OK, so much of the stuff above 20 in WL is found to be not worth the expense, or broken? and better to empover the RV moreso.

Re: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1c...0G0k.xAzV0z.-0


Is the 3/3 in Ethereal Bond for prevention of energy starvation?

Is the 'chance' a better thing to have from Power of the Masses than the dmg dealt back as healing from Master of the Abyss? - with a point to spare to put into Soul feast for other return healing, since we use Soul Sickness alot

Could 1 point be 'safely ' pulled from somewhere to be put in Tempered Will, even though everyone has Break Away now?, 2 'Remove controls' better than 1?

Haven't started carving the stone for the build yet, so asking more ??'s