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Thread: Do reactive ability MDPS classes like Blade Dancer and Paragon die a lot in dungeons?

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    Default Do reactive ability MDPS classes like Blade Dancer and Paragon die a lot in dungeons?

    I just hit lvl 17 with my BD, so I can do the first instance in beta 5. Given that so many of his damaging abilities require him to dodge, means he will have to be facing bosses in dungeons (or losing a lot of his abilities), which sort of makes him an OT (*not* by choice), a weird role for a "rogue" to be taking on, if he's going to use his abilities to their fullest potential.

    Could players who *have* played BD or Paragon in *dungeons* please comment on whether or not they were always being killed by boss cleave-type and frontal cone abilities because they were forced, by class design, to stand in front of the boss?

    *Or* for those who stood behind the boss, were you happy with your DPS and, if not, how did you respec so that you were?

    If I'd rolled a Rift Stalker, fine, but BD is supposed to be dps, so I'm sure you appreciate my concern.

    Thank you.

    EDIT: The purpose here is to try to figure out if BD is a truly viable soul in dungeons, since so many of his abilities fire in reaction to him dodging a frontal attack. Obviously, he will do damage standing behind a boss. But if he has to do that, why not just be an Assassin? PLEASE post ONLY if you have dungeon experience with BD or even PARAGON. Thank you.
    Last edited by Atar; 01-17-2011 at 09:06 AM.

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    in a dungeon the bos has to be on the tank all the time, just dont use the reactive o switch to a more suited soul build.

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    reactive abilities are not usuable in dungeons unless your the tank, and they dont really hamper dps all that much for the classes that have them and dont use them

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nix-zero View Post
    in a dungeon the bos has to be on the tank all the time, just dont use the reactive o switch to a more suited soul build.
    If certain souls cannot participate to their fullest (or even close, in regards to the 2 I've mentioned), then they are sub-optimal in dungeons and rifts, at best; at worst, they are a waste of time.

    My purpose here is to ascertain whether or not it is a waste of time to bother rolling a reactive-heavy MDPS character at all, if he's going to be standing behind a boss, loaded with +dodge +parry and unable to perform the very abilities for which he was built.

    If this is the case, these characters have a major design flaw that needs to be corrected by Trion.

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    Nix-zero is kinda right. You are going to wait to minimize damage unless you have both a main healer and a bard in your group (bard providing alot of passive aoe heals). Blade-dancer does have alot of non-reactive abilities to use as well... unfortunately you kind of wind up focusing in reactive or non-reactive ones from their trees.

    If you are dead-set on being a blade dancer cause you like it conceptually I would suggest using 2 of your 4 roles to have both a "solo" and a group role that can maximize your effectiveness for each situation.

    Maybe something like this just for group dps purposes. You can skip alot of the stuff you would take to solo/tank with like the increased dodge and reactive abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atar View Post
    If certain souls cannot participate to their fullest (or even close, in regards to the 2 I've mentioned), then they are sub-optimal in dungeons and rifts, at best; at worst, they are a waste of time.

    My purpose here is to ascertain whether or not it is a waste of time to bother rolling a reactive-heavy MDPS character at all, if he's going to be standing behind a boss, loaded with +dodge +parry and unable to perform the very abilities for which he was built.

    If this is the case, these characters have a major design flaw that needs to be corrected by Trion.
    At this point I would suggest not looking at Blade Dancer then. You want to use the reactive abilities... but the ones a blade dancer has are more suited when you are subbing it for tanking or when you are soloing or in pvp.

    Paragon on the other hand uses a lot of "follow up attacks" that basically are only usable after other attacks. The majority of these do not require you to have dodged or parried an attack first in order to use them. I would suggest if you want a reactive dps to look this route instead.

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    Yes, in a dungeon, as a DPS you are not going to want to be tanking anything unless things have gotten really desperate (e.g. tank's dead and there is absolutely no-one else who can step up). My advice would be to just not waste points on the reactive abilities for a grouping build to be honest. Blade Dancer counters are more useful for when taken as a secondary for Riftstalker tanks than anything else if you ask me.

    Still they might get a tiny bit of use if a target has a melee AoE ability, so if you're lucky enough to dodge/parry that I suppose you'll get some use out of them. A little bit anyway..
    Last edited by Kedon; 01-17-2011 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atar View Post
    If certain souls cannot participate to their fullest (or even close, in regards to the 2 I've mentioned), then they are sub-optimal in dungeons and rifts, at best; at worst, they are a waste of time.

    My purpose here is to ascertain whether or not it is a waste of time to bother rolling a reactive-heavy MDPS character at all, if he's going to be standing behind a boss, loaded with +dodge +parry and unable to perform the very abilities for which he was built.

    If this is the case, these characters have a major design flaw that needs to be corrected by Trion.
    Paragon does not need any reactive abilities to do a lot of sustained DPS.

    Obviously, don't invest in reactive skills if you are not going to be hit and use the points in useful skills, either in Paragon or another soul.

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    If your tank dies and the boss has about 10% health left you could pop something like side steps and finish him off.
    I've done that very thing. You just better pray you actually dodge the hits hehe. Aside from that BD is not a tank by any stretch of the imagination. 30 second dodge tank at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sempermalum View Post
    reactive abilities are not usuable in dungeons unless your the tank, and they dont really hamper dps all that much for the classes that have them and dont use them
    Very authoritative, but completely false. Even if you've never played BD, if you'd be so kind as to take a look at the tree, I think you'll see in a side-by-side comparison with Assassin which character would do more damage while standing behind a boss:

    http://rift-planner.com/?archetype=2...nts=0&lang=eng

    Again, the point here is to figure out if reactive-ability, enemy-*facing* MDPS are worthwhile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atar View Post
    Again, the point here is to figure out if reactive-ability, enemy-*facing* MDPS are worthwhile.
    Don't put Paragon in that category because his DPS does not come from reactive skills at all.
    Last edited by RamzaBehoulve; 01-17-2011 at 08:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atar View Post
    I just hit lvl 17 with my BD, so I can do the first instance in beta 5. Given that so many of his damaging abilities require him to dodge, means he will have to be facing bosses in dungeons, which sort of makes him an OT, a weird role for a "rogue" to be taking on.

    Could players who *have* played BD or Paragon in *dungeons* please comment on whether or not they were always being killed by boss cleave-type and frontal cone abilities because they were forced, by class design, to stand in front of the boss?

    If I'd rolled a Rift Stalker, fine, but BD is supposed to be dps, so I'm sure you appreciate my concern.

    Thank you.
    u'll use your reactive skills if u dodge the boss AOE, otherwise use a different Role

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atar View Post
    Very authoritative, but completely false. Even if you've never played BD, if you'd be so kind as to take a look at the tree, I think you'll see in a side-by-side comparison with Assassin which character would do more damage while standing behind a boss:

    http://rift-planner.com/?archetype=2...nts=0&lang=eng

    Again, the point here is to figure out if reactive-ability, enemy-*facing* MDPS are worthwhile.
    You are just refusing to listen to what people are telling you. In an instanced or raid PvE situation you will not be making much use out of your reactive abilities as a dps. You do not maintain solid enough levels of mitigation to tank and you do not get attack enough to frequently set them off.

    In the case of AoE you may get lucky and have one set off your abilities, but the reality is that Blade Dancer has a MYRIAD of abilities that do not require you to dodge/parry an attack first. They also have a lot of sequencing to their abilities that makes it so you have to use a specific strike before others so is that what you are considering reactive?

    I don't see much true harm in you standing in front of the mob unless they have higher avoidance values from the front or they do alot of frontal-aoe damage. If you refuse to stand behind a mob that's your own choice.

    At the same time, there is nothing preventing you from going blade dancer/assassin and smoking mobs from behind too....

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    http://rifts.ru/tallents/index.html#...19,5_&lang=eng

    My personal PvE BD build I'm going to be using. Sacrifices a bit of extra crit damage for a really good phase shift ability + -12s on the cd for all phase shifts. This also gives stalk which reduces threat generation and increases your damage by 15%, as well as gives you a huge survivability/mobility advantage over other DPSer's. I figured since your a melee character your going to be CC'd a lot by bosses so having 4 free cleanses on 33s cooldown's that all give you extra buffs when you use them is really nice. Now you might be wondering, don't you get threat generation whenever you use blitz or rift disturbance? Yes, the reason I actually like having that is because you can peel off mobs from healers/mage's if they just happen to get a mob of ads on accident. No, your not a tank, in fact you have fairly low survivability, however that +15% endurance along with some fairly nice dodge/parry % and the fact that you can get +50% dodge for 15 seconds while the tank grabs aggro from you makes you much much more tanky than a squishy mage or a cleric who's trying to cast heals on your group.

    This is however how I would go about using blade dancer, as a sort of emergency off-tank slash fairly good DPSer with some group buffs. If they changed BD into a sort of melee-bard I would be happy with that as well but I enjoy the way it is now :P
    Last edited by Korncob; 01-17-2011 at 08:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gulain View Post
    Nix-zero is kinda right. You are going to wait to minimize damage unless you have both a main healer and a bard in your group (bard providing alot of passive aoe heals). Blade-dancer does have alot of non-reactive abilities to use as well... unfortunately you kind of wind up focusing in reactive or non-reactive ones from their trees.

    If you are dead-set on being a blade dancer cause you like it conceptually I would suggest using 2 of your 4 roles to have both a "solo" and a group role that can maximize your effectiveness for each situation.

    Maybe something like this just for group dps purposes. You can skip alot of the stuff you would take to solo/tank with like the increased dodge and reactive abilities.
    Thank you, but I think you've missed my point, as did Nix. I am not proposing that BD and Paragon tank--they are obviously not tanks--*yet* they are forced to stand *with* the tank in order to perform.

    If a player has to respec BD so that he is *not* doing what he was built to do, in order to be in a dungeon group, that character is flawed conceptually. We're not talking about a warrior who has +10% armor for his leveling build, who switches to a spec where he has +5% crit for dungeon groups--we're talking about 2 classes--BD *and* Paragon, who are *constructed* to do damage after reacting to frontal attacks against them.

    So, are these classes truly viable or not in dungeons? Obviously, their non-reactive abilities will *work*, but unless you can show me builds that don't use their reactives *but* do as much or more damage as their counterparts, you're just proving my point: that no one will play BD and Paragon in instances once they figure out that these characters are fatally flawed.
    Last edited by Atar; 01-17-2011 at 09:13 AM.

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