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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: In response to the recently closed "Rogues and Clerics" thread.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    soo... you are saying that having to cast your heals would keep you balanced if you did pyro type damage. I want whatever it is you are smoking, because that is just waaaaay beyond the normal class bias. You preface you plea to getting increased damage with some nonsense about how you should be doing full healing, and pyro like dps in the same build, but it wouldnt be overpowered because you would have to use both types of abilities in order for both types of abilities to work....wut? Your full healer, full dps builds are Exactly why they have to punish hybridization in clerics or you end up with megatron raid boss dude. (they already are, but this would be waaaaaaay worse)
    You conveniently forgot the bit about speccing for those heals costing 15% of our DPS and then using them, ever, is a DPS loss.

    And no, you can't do competitive damage AND competitive healing as a cleric. And by "competitive" I mean with other clerics. If we were buffed, the same would be true. Healers would be healers. DPSers would be DPSers. Hybrids would do neither as well, but would be flexible.

    You see, in healing, a boss only does M amount of damage to the raid over the course of the fight. You really don't want your max HPS * duration of fight > M unless you're solo healing because you'll end up over healing. The entire point of a build like a shamicar or inquisicar is to be able to use heals when necessary and DPS otherwise. The very ability to do this costs a substantial DPS loss in exchange for a minor amount of passive healing. But this affords the ability to be there to heal when raid damage spikes but otherwise DPS. It makes overhealing less likely and makes it easier to meet DPS checks.

    It doesn't, however, produce an overpowered raid boss.

  2. #32
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I'm not going to touch the rest of the other content in this thread as it deals with things outside my area of expertise.

    But, I'm here to acknowledge that we are in fact looking at increasing cleric DPS. As per my usual caveat, I won't give you an ETA other than "Man I wish PTS was updated so people can start reviewing the changes".

    While I fully understand that everyone would love more communication from the developers, it is not always viable to have them respond to forum feedback by posting on the forums or engage in a dialog with the community.

    ~Daglar
    How about an increase in Cleric Tank capabilities? 1.6 was supposed to address tanks and clerics got the short end of the stick (again). Still can't hold threat for crap, and our passive dmg reduction talent was reduced, so now we are harder to heal.

  3. #33
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    The idea that because you can heal doesn't mean you should. The idea that buffing cleric dps will cause the sky to fall because of healing is even more ******ed.

    There is a thing called a global cooldown. Each global cooldown, if you need reminded is 1.5 sec, can only be used to dps OR heal. We can't do one without repercussion to the other. Also the fact we only have 2 dots further improves that point since most of a clerics damage is direct damage.

    For all you pansies *****ing about pvp, it's the same thing. I doubt a cleric will kill you with vex and SH. If they do, you deserve to die. Now Shamans have a potential of 3 dots, but when you start talking melee, it has its own encumbrances. And for those talking about salvation super passive healing... It's 5%. Not to mention we are the only class that can't effectively reduce healing of others. So if a cleric is hybridizied, and decides to heal. He may not die, but sure as hell ain't killing anything either.
    Last edited by Indaleco; 11-22-2011 at 10:12 PM.

  4.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by skruwd View Post
    Now, I do understand that there is a lot of crud to wade through before getting to any actual constructive posts with proper parses/research/sources, but it's not too hard to focus on the large threads with the fairly obvious titles and have a skim to see what they have to say.
    I assure you that the class developers do read the forums, the raw feedback provided in game, and monitor the state of the game in a variety of manners. Please do not expect that they respond to posts or engage in discussions on the forums.

    Just because developer X does not post does not mean they are not doing their job - or that feedback posted on the forums is not being reviewed. While I'm sure everyone would love to be able to engage in discussion with them on a regular basis it simply isn't viable at all times.

    ~Daglar

  5. #35
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    Thank you for your posts. I'm sure it does put some of the restless people at ease.

  6. #36
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    Honestly, this isn't an attempt at trolling but I been reading threads about clerics, rogues, etc.. You know, the problem is the same problem every game company is facing. They have to 'try' to balance pvp and pve. Let's face it, it doesn't work. I'd rather they just release pvp only souls for those who wanna flag pvp, and pve for those who wanna pve and we call it a day. We have one pvp soul each, so why not make 3-4 more for each class and do extensive testing and that's all you can do in pvp.

    While this would affect the pvp servers, I guess they'd have to figure out how to deal with that. I guess I'm tired of this big debate between pvp and pve. Well, clerics shouldn't do this because in pvp this... Well rogues shouldn't do this because in pvp this. Everyone knows well that when you tweak something, you break something for pvp. When you tweak this for pvp, you break something in pve. Notice the trend? Only adding itemization on top of this makes it even worse. Not everyone wants to pvp, and the same can be said for pve. Face it Trion has the same problem every game company has faced. Just be patient with them, they can only do so much while pumping out new content.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I assure you that the class developers do read the forums, the raw feedback provided in game, and monitor the state of the game in a variety of manners. Please do not expect that they respond to posts or engage in discussions on the forums.

    Just because developer X does not post does not mean they are not doing their job - or that feedback posted on the forums is not being reviewed. While I'm sure everyone would love to be able to engage in discussion with them on a regular basis it simply isn't viable at all times.

    ~Daglar
    How about viable at any time? We had 5 posts during the supposed rogue touch up patch 1.5, and one of those was to indicate that he was monitoring a thread to nerf any melee spec which produced competitive DPS.

    I simply do not see how it can be not viable for a person to take 15 minutes out of their day to confirm that they understand the problems the community has, when there is such a massive amount of posts (which they apparently have time to monitor) requesting acknowledgement.

    (Gear)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I assure you that the class developers do read the forums, the raw feedback provided in game, and monitor the state of the game in a variety of manners. Please do not expect that they respond to posts or engage in discussions on the forums.
    Thanks for the feedback Daglar, and it's good to know DPS is being looked at. Are you able to confirm whether or not cleric tanking is also being looked at again? (ie. do Trion accept that there is a problem with the Justicar soul when compared to warriors right now?)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I assure you that the class developers do read the forums, the raw feedback provided in game, and monitor the state of the game in a variety of manners. Please do not expect that they respond to posts or engage in discussions on the forums.

    Just because developer X does not post does not mean they are not doing their job - or that feedback posted on the forums is not being reviewed. While I'm sure everyone would love to be able to engage in discussion with them on a regular basis it simply isn't viable at all times.

    ~Daglar
    You can say this and perhaps it is true but here is the problem. My father had a saying when I was a kid "I am from Missouri, show me" when I said for the 10th time that I was going to stop being an idiot. In this case it is even worse because both Rogues and Clerics get little to no feedback, not even to say "yep that is the change, it is staying and here is why." They also do not see change in a direction that by it's action shows they are listening.

    You can say something for all to hear but if it A. Does not come from the "horse's mouth and B. Does not have an acrion consistent with the statement, then what you say has little meaning and arguably even lacks credibility.
    Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorius triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I assure you that the class developers do read the forums, the raw feedback provided in game, and monitor the state of the game in a variety of manners. Please do not expect that they respond to posts or engage in discussions on the forums.

    Just because developer X does not post does not mean they are not doing their job - or that feedback posted on the forums is not being reviewed. While I'm sure everyone would love to be able to engage in discussion with them on a regular basis it simply isn't viable at all times.

    ~Daglar
    Nah, what indicates they aren't doing their job is the lack of changes since 1.4 and the failure of the changes in 1.4. Even with the 1.4 PTS before it launched we knew the patch hadn't done what it was intended to do. The numbers were already showing the problem. And this is repeating itself, 1.6 was supposed to bring all tanks to the same level, but now warrior tanks are pretty much universally superior to cleric or rogue ones. This was pointed out on the PTS, and now I expect we'll be stuck with this imbalance for another 3 or so patches until its revisited, just like we've been waiting for 6 months for changes to cleric dps scaling.

    I don't know if the class devs have other duties, or what is distracting them. Because there is no way the changes in the patch notes can be taking all of their coding time.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    I don't know if the class devs have other duties, or what is distracting them. Because there is no way the changes in the patch notes can be taking all of their coding time.
    By my rough reckoning, there were about 280 work hours between the release of 1.5 and 1.6. As a developer myself, if I spent nearly 300 hours working on something, and the end result was the list of Cleric changes for 1.6, I'd have been kicked out on the street and be looking for a new job

    So yep, I think we can assume the class devs are not solely focused on their classes, and are working on other stuff as well. I sincerely hope the Rift devs are at least dedicated to Rift (maybe working on the next expansion?), and aren't off working on "Defiance" or whatever else Trion has in the pipeline.

  12. #42
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    It's not that we don't trust you. We just take the Soviet approach: doveryai, no proveryai.

    "Trust, but verify."

  13. #43
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    While I know it's impossible to respond to a thread like this that will please people, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to even reply to it Daglar.

    I don't work for Trion so I have no idea what everyone's job is within the company but one thing I believe everyone would like to see (thus the reason why there are so many posts about it) is to have a patch oriented towards properly balancing the classes. I realize this is VERY hard to do as every change affects both PVP & PVE at the same time.

    One thing Trion has been doing since the very beginning is releasing new content very fast. This is the first game I've played where new content was released to this degree. I think allocating some of the resources Trion currently uses towards new content (such as manpower) to assist in balancing the callings of each class is something that would please your customers a great deal. Balancing every callings would certainly require a lot of time and resources. If this isn't possible in a timely manner, I think at the very least having 1 competitive calling (or combination of callings) for each classses would satisfy your players until Trion is able to spend the time & manpower balancing the other callings.

    It's also logical from a business point of view that Trion will release new content when there is competition (such as the launch of SWTOR). I just ask that you also spend time addressing ongoing balancing concerns from your customers.

    My 2 cents.

    Muffintop, Voodoo Officer
    Last edited by Muffin911; 11-23-2011 at 05:50 AM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I assure you that the class developers do read the forums, the raw feedback provided in game, and monitor the state of the game in a variety of manners. Please do not expect that they respond to posts or engage in discussions on the forums.

    Just because developer X does not post does not mean they are not doing their job - or that feedback posted on the forums is not being reviewed. While I'm sure everyone would love to be able to engage in discussion with them on a regular basis it simply isn't viable at all times.

    ~Daglar
    I'm not sure about this really. If they don't then someone else should be. You have to have some communication or it's just going to frustrate people. This is true with almost any sale surely? If I'm buying a car, whilst it might be unreasonable to expect to talk to the guy who physically put it together there will be some one I could talk to or to answer questions you have. Rift is like that but every month or whenever re-subscription is coming up. It just seems to be you...all the time. They should get another guy to post and then you can split the two classes between yourselves.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I assure you that the class developers do read the forums, the raw feedback provided in game, and monitor the state of the game in a variety of manners. Please do not expect that they respond to posts or engage in discussions on the forums.

    Just because developer X does not post does not mean they are not doing their job - or that feedback posted on the forums is not being reviewed. While I'm sure everyone would love to be able to engage in discussion with them on a regular basis it simply isn't viable at all times.

    ~Daglar
    Why? Why doesnt Trion take their time responding on the forums and create good customer relations?

    You at Trion should ask yourself, what have most big mmos done wrong lately that have made the subscriptionnumbers decline rapidly? They all ignored the player community, deleting posts, or just ignoring them, just like you, not posting at all. Games like AoC, Warhammer and Aion all did this, and they paid for it.

    when you make an mmo, on planing stage, the first 2 points should always be

    1. Respond on forums, create good customer relations - or players will leave
    2. Respond to player concerns, most important class concerns - or players will leave
    http://sigcdn.siglaunch.com/sigs/rift/sig.php?sig_id=127292

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