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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: In response to the recently closed "Rogues and Clerics" thread.

  1. #16
    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EchoesIE View Post
    The thread was closed for the following reason: "The reason for this is we do not feel that either encourage a meaningful or constructive discussion since they promote replies that simply say “/signed” or answer a list of questions. In place of a petition, we recommend presenting something as a request or a suggestion so that the entire community can discuss it."

    I don't know how else to say it, but at least on the Cleric forums, there have been a dozen posts on ways to increase Cleric DPS (while not making them the new FoTM) as well as the needed Cleric Tanking Changes. There are 48 pages of feedback in the "Cleric DPS" feedback thread posted by our non-existant class lead, and 42 pages of feedback in the "Cleric Tanking" thread. I think it was rather small minded and inappropriate to close a thread wherein the people just feel like they deserve a change, a note, or some kind of word from a purple-name on the roadmap of each class and what the development team is trying to do with each class. For the first time in months of playing, I am thoroughly disappointed with Rift. Does that mean I'm going to rage quit and go find something else? Absolutely not. I have enough faith in Trion, and enough faith that we as a playerbase can overcome the horrific changes, nerfs and constant struggles against the development team.

    Thanks all

    TL : DR -- There is plenty of feedback already that hasn't been acted upon. Why close the thread?
    I am sorry, but increasing cleric dps without elevating them to god mode against other players is damn nigh impossible without pretty much making them a whole different calling than what they are now.
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 11-21-2011 at 11:08 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    I am sorry, but increasing cleric dps without elevating them to god mode against other players is damn nigh impossible without pretty much making them a whole different calling than what they are now.
    No. This has been debunked many, many times. The clerics in the dps thread in the cleric forum have proposed numerous solutions. So put away the strawman, he's been beat to death already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    No. This has been debunked many, many times. The clerics in the dps thread in the cleric forum have proposed numerous solutions. So put away the strawman, he's been beat to death already.
    I haven't seen a solution that doesn't split the Cleric Calling in two... which sucks.

    Any solution that involves lowering healing while raising DPS - in any shape - essentially means that Clerics will have half the options of every other Calling.

    Right now as a Warrior, I can go half-tank and half-DPS no problem, and be a great solo build. A Cleric will not be able to do that at all, they'll have to mix DPS with DPS and Healing with Healing only.

    Other than that, I have to wonder how it would effect balance issues. Warriors can only go melee DPS, so in some fights they can't compete. Mages can only go ranged DPS, so in some fights they fall behind Warriors - that's balanced. But Clerics and Rogues can do both, so the only way to balance them to not just completely overtake Warriors and Mage would be to lower their DPS slightly. That's how Rogues seem to be built right now, but I wonder where Clerics will fall in the picture. I guess they'd be a little behind Rogues.

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    More arguments to dismantle. Fine.

    I haven't seen a solution that doesn't split the Cleric Calling in two... which sucks.
    Go look again, I have proposed such a plan, as have others. Increase the SP scaling by shifting the 36 passives to 0 points, and alter the SP scaling while boosting the effectiveness of tier 1-3 dps tree talents. You can get a 20% single target boost by doing this and still have inquisicars doing less damage and healing than chloros already can.

    Any solution that involves lowering healing while raising DPS - in any shape - essentially means that Clerics will have half the options of every other Calling.

    Right now as a Warrior, I can go half-tank and half-DPS no problem, and be a great solo build. A Cleric will not be able to do that at all, they'll have to mix DPS with DPS and Healing with Healing only.
    I solo using an inquisitor build that makes no use of justicar. So this is also not necessarily correct.

    Other than that, I have to wonder how it would effect balance issues. Warriors can only go melee DPS, so in some fights they can't compete. Mages can only go ranged DPS, so in some fights they fall behind Warriors - that's balanced. But Clerics and Rogues can do both, so the only way to balance them to not just completely overtake Warriors and Mage would be to lower their DPS slightly. That's how Rogues seem to be built right now, but I wonder where Clerics will fall in the picture. I guess they'd be a little behind Rogues.
    Except that there is no synergy in clerics between ranged and melee trees. A cleric will either range or melee, they won't be doing both (or at least, they won't be doing both well). I'm not even sure why this is a problem. Melee should be balanced vs. range in general though, regardless of which calling it is. A druid and beastmaster should be compared or inquisitor and pyro, not a druid and pyro.

    Currently cleric single target dps falls 30% behind other callings in end game raids if the cleric goes for full dps (that is, no healing or survivability). I have no idea why other classes seem to want such an imbalance to continue. Does anyone have an argument for why clerics should be 30% behind the dps of everyone else?

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    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    More arguments to dismantle. Fine.



    Go look again, I have proposed such a plan, as have others. Increase the SP scaling by shifting the 36 passives to 0 points, and alter the SP scaling while boosting the effectiveness of tier 1-3 dps tree talents. You can get a 20% single target boost by doing this and still have inquisicars doing less damage and healing than chloros already can.



    I solo using an inquisitor build that makes no use of justicar. So this is also not necessarily correct.



    Except that there is no synergy in clerics between ranged and melee trees. A cleric will either range or melee, they won't be doing both (or at least, they won't be doing both well). I'm not even sure why this is a problem. Melee should be balanced vs. range in general though, regardless of which calling it is. A druid and beastmaster should be compared or inquisitor and pyro, not a druid and pyro.

    Currently cleric single target dps falls 30% behind other callings in end game raids if the cleric goes for full dps (that is, no healing or survivability). I have no idea why other classes seem to want such an imbalance to continue. Does anyone have an argument for why clerics should be 30% behind the dps of everyone else?
    because they will be nigh on god mode verse other callings. Imagine if clerics could throw damage like pyros, now imagine pyros with direct healing. There is just too many healing options to seperate dps from healing builds enough that you wouldnt end up with pyro like damage with self healing if you boost cleric dps trees.

    Or worse.... storm caller's with defense... scary, and this is what you get with hybrid buffed cab builds
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 11-21-2011 at 12:36 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

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    Valis what it boils down to raid spots. If cleric could do at least equal dps. Then people fear that they lose their raid spot. That is the core problem.

    Second one and one that makes no sense to me, as it a baseless argument in the terms of a mmo. Is that you can heal and dps is just scary to them. It seem they forget mages can also do this and for most part better than cleric. as they can dps and heal a lot. While if a cleric has to heal him. He first has to stop dps and heal. Justicar does not provide enough heals for it to really matter.

    Third one is that since a cleric , can heal, tank and support. They should not due better dps do the option of the class tree. If the could do all four roles. Then the other callings would become useless.

    I will say this, me and friend tried to 20 man cleric raid. In dh, gp and gs when did alright,. But I will say it was annoying as hell and we did wipe some. Thus, itís a red haring argument, but one holds true. Yet, not really possible in long run due to things people seems to forget about in raids. As game mechanics wreck havoc on the raid. No matter how many pots you have, you still running out of mana on a very regular bases. Which was the reason for a lot of wipes.
    Let freedom ring and all trolls hide under the bridge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    More arguments to dismantle. Fine.



    Go look again, I have proposed such a plan, as have others. Increase the SP scaling by shifting the 36 passives to 0 points, and alter the SP scaling while boosting the effectiveness of tier 1-3 dps tree talents. You can get a 20% single target boost by doing this and still have inquisicars doing less damage and healing than chloros already can.

    This change would create a lot of problems with Justicar, because Justicars can get so much of their healing for such a low investment. You could easily go 51 Inquis/15 Justicar and end up with much, much more DPS than a Chloro (assuming Inquis DPS was similar to MM or Pyro) and almost the same amount of healing. In most of these solutions, Justicar is the problem.

    I solo using an inquisitor build that makes no use of justicar. So this is also not necessarily correct.

    You seem to be pretty smart, so you must realize the flaw in this argument. Just because you aren't currently doing something doesn't mean plenty of people won't, especially if it turns their Justicar builds into a roided-out Chloromancer.

    Except that there is no synergy in clerics between ranged and melee trees. A cleric will either range or melee, they won't be doing both (or at least, they won't be doing both well). I'm not even sure why this is a problem. Melee should be balanced vs. range in general though, regardless of which calling it is. A druid and beastmaster should be compared or inquisitor and pyro, not a druid and pyro.

    The issue is that raid fights are made to be won by either ranged or melee, in a lot of cases. This is why Rogue is still a great DPS calling even though they are a little under Mages/Warriors on individual fights - if you looked at average damage across all the fights in one Raid, you'd see Rogues coming out a lot better. Clerics have the same advantage that Rogues have, meaning you can bring both a melee and ranged spec and change depending on the fight, thus guaranteeing you can always do competitive DPS in fights where Warriors/Mages will be in the back seat due to the mechanics of the fight.

    Currently cleric single target dps falls 30% behind other callings in end game raids if the cleric goes for full dps (that is, no healing or survivability). I have no idea why other classes seem to want such an imbalance to continue. Does anyone have an argument for why clerics should be 30% behind the dps of everyone else?
    I think they could do with being about 10-15% lower than the other callings... 30% is excessive. On the other hand, making it equal is also excessive, in my opinion.

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    Just what we need -- Cleric buffs so that we have fewer healers in WF's than we have now. If Cleric DPS is so bad, then why do 90% of clerics spec into a DPS role in WF's?

    (I have a R7 cleric, but I only heal with it).

  9. #24
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    You should take it to more public venues. like mmorpg.com they will never admit to being "wrong"

    its like how they acted with the exploits in PVP rifts. they "turned a blind eye" to it until we took it to the public forums that weren't being modded by Trion.

    they did the same thing then, deleted and closed posts to avoid the issue
    Last edited by l1nkdead; 11-21-2011 at 10:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    because they will be nigh on god mode verse other callings. Imagine if clerics could throw damage like pyros, now imagine pyros with direct healing. There is just too many healing options to seperate dps from healing builds enough that you wouldnt end up with pyro like damage with self healing if you boost cleric dps trees.

    Or worse.... storm caller's with defense... scary, and this is what you get with hybrid buffed cab builds
    The point is though that if an Inquisitor put enough points into dps souls to match a pyro he would have jack all for healing abilities. People are NOT saying "let us do top tier dps while letting us put 20 plus points into healing abilities." Most are actually annoyed that in order to do 30% less dps they need to put points into non-dps souls. The main reason people put those points into non-dps souls is because clerics actually do less dps in many builds if they put the points into the other dps souls. You could easily change things where the current -icar specs see their dps unchanged while those who go all in on dps see an improvement to a point of competitiveness.

    You among others are happy to ignore the miriad of suggestions that go in that direction and simply continue to trumpet "clerics will be gods." Fine, clerics will just be healers? Warriors will now only be tanks, rogues and mages will only be dps and we will boost all individual soul buffs and debuffs because the bard and archon souls are gone. Does that work for you? If not does the term hypocricy mean anything to you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    I am sorry, but increasing cleric dps without elevating them to god mode against other players is damn nigh impossible without pretty much making them a whole different calling than what they are now.
    Completely untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocks View Post
    I haven't seen a solution that doesn't split the Cleric Calling in two... which sucks.

    Any solution that involves lowering healing while raising DPS - in any shape - essentially means that Clerics will have half the options of every other Calling.

    Right now as a Warrior, I can go half-tank and half-DPS no problem, and be a great solo build. A Cleric will not be able to do that at all, they'll have to mix DPS with DPS and Healing with Healing only.

    Other than that, I have to wonder how it would effect balance issues. Warriors can only go melee DPS, so in some fights they can't compete. Mages can only go ranged DPS, so in some fights they fall behind Warriors - that's balanced. But Clerics and Rogues can do both, so the only way to balance them to not just completely overtake Warriors and Mage would be to lower their DPS slightly. That's how Rogues seem to be built right now, but I wonder where Clerics will fall in the picture. I guess they'd be a little behind Rogues.
    Those suggestions have all been bad, too. Reducing healing for DPS violates the fundamental theorem of Rift (that combining soul A + soul B lets you do both soul A and soul B, but this would mean soul A + soul B = do either soul A or soul B, a contradiction). Moving DoL up in justicar nerfs current builds that are by all means underpowered, and is almost always proposed in ignorance that DoL does no healing until you cast it, which takes a full GCD away from your DPSing. 11 points into justicar is ~15% loss in DPS as is, and these builds don't compete with chloro. Nobody has actually proved that directly increasing our DPS would in any way make us out of line with any other calling in the game. It's not even known that we need to change anything outside of merely increasing our DPS. We do want 44+ point abilities to be interesting and valuable to promote 51 point builds, but we don't want them to define a soul entirely and be required as to punish hybrids (look at 36/30 mage builds that are topping DPS, if we don't push 51 points, we can't even compete with our own DPS builds, let alone any other calling). There is no evidence that any buffing of our damage would make us overpowered, period.

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    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    Completely untrue.



    Those suggestions have all been bad, too. Reducing healing for DPS violates the fundamental theorem of Rift (that combining soul A + soul B lets you do both soul A and soul B, but this would mean soul A + soul B = do either soul A or soul B, a contradiction). Moving DoL up in justicar nerfs current builds that are by all means underpowered, and is almost always proposed in ignorance that DoL does no healing until you cast it, which takes a full GCD away from your DPSing. 11 points into justicar is ~15% loss in DPS as is, and these builds don't compete with chloro. Nobody has actually proved that directly increasing our DPS would in any way make us out of line with any other calling in the game. It's not even known that we need to change anything outside of merely increasing our DPS. We do want 44+ point abilities to be interesting and valuable to promote 51 point builds, but we don't want them to define a soul entirely and be required as to punish hybrids (look at 36/30 mage builds that are topping DPS, if we don't push 51 points, we can't even compete with our own DPS builds, let alone any other calling). There is no evidence that any buffing of our damage would make us overpowered, period.
    soo... you are saying that having to cast your heals would keep you balanced if you did pyro type damage. I want whatever it is you are smoking, because that is just waaaaay beyond the normal class bias. You preface you plea to getting increased damage with some nonsense about how you should be doing full healing, and pyro like dps in the same build, but it wouldnt be overpowered because you would have to use both types of abilities in order for both types of abilities to work....wut? Your full healer, full dps builds are Exactly why they have to punish hybridization in clerics or you end up with megatron raid boss dude. (they already are, but this would be waaaaaaay worse)
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 11-22-2011 at 09:00 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  13.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    No, what Zinbik posted was,



    He says nothing about anything being done or that Trion even acknowledges there's a problem. All he says is that he knows we think there's a problem. And he hasn't said anything since. And that's why clerics are and will continue to give him grief. At least until he does something or says he will be doing something.

    Well, or until our accounts run out anyway.
    I'm not going to touch the rest of the other content in this thread as it deals with things outside my area of expertise.

    But, I'm here to acknowledge that we are in fact looking at increasing cleric DPS. As per my usual caveat, I won't give you an ETA other than "Man I wish PTS was updated so people can start reviewing the changes".

    While I fully understand that everyone would love more communication from the developers, it is not always viable to have them respond to forum feedback by posting on the forums or engage in a dialog with the community.

    ~Daglar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    While I fully understand that everyone would love more communication from the developers, it is not always viable to have them respond to forum feedback by posting on the forums or engage in a dialog with the community.

    ~Daglar
    That's all well and fine, but I think the issue here is that the rogue community has heard absolutely nothing from the supposed rogue dev/representative. It's gotten to a point where the majority of the rogue community doubt the existence of said dev/rep.

    A single post every once in a while isn't hard to make, we don't expect extended Q & A sessions, just an acknowledgement that we've been heard and/or that it's being worked on.

    Now, I do understand that there is a lot of crud to wade through before getting to any actual constructive posts with proper parses/research/sources, but it's not too hard to focus on the large threads with the fairly obvious titles and have a skim to see what they have to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    I'm not going to touch the rest of the other content in this thread as it deals with things outside my area of expertise.

    But, I'm here to acknowledge that we are in fact looking at increasing cleric DPS. As per my usual caveat, I won't give you an ETA other than "Man I wish PTS was updated so people can start reviewing the changes".

    While I fully understand that everyone would love more communication from the developers, it is not always viable to have them respond to forum feedback by posting on the forums or engage in a dialog with the community.

    ~Daglar
    Ok, if you can't tell us when, can you at least tell us how much?

    Will 66pt cleric DPS specs (IE: no healing, no justicar) be within a "reasonable" distance of 66pt specs for rogues, wars and mages?
    BOO!

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