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Thread: Take your nerf bat and burn it, sell it, give it away for crying out loud!!!

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Take your nerf bat and burn it, sell it, give it away for crying out loud!!!

    Have the Devs and/or the people responsible for mmo's not learnt 1 simple thing from all their years and experience in gaming?

    Constantly nerfing/buffing classes causes major outrage within the community, nerfing in particular.

    If a small handful of skilled theorists can maximize a class's full potential this should not lead to a nerf for that class, if it transpires one class has the potential to be overpowered then buff the other classes to match it.

    It would cause far less outcry in the forums for a start. Just because it has always been like that in every mmo to date doesn't make it right and doesn't make it the best option to keep the paying customer happy. All it does over time, is make people look for something new to play. So carry on wielding your bat if you have no other ideas for maintaining a player base, but I feel it is not in the best interests of the game in the long run.

  2. #2
    Telaran Fraktyl's Avatar
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    Not to mention other games... but they are running into problems because of doing that. If you are constantly buffing then you set a very high ceiling for content creation. Too high and then ONLY the min-maxxers will be able to experience it.

    Yes, nerfs stink. They are a necessary evil. Ever play a non mmo multiplayer game where they released a balance patch (say... Diablo 2, patch 1.10?). There were many nerfs in that, but it balanced the game quite a bit. Granted it was too late because of the rampant cheating, but the intent was still there. Other single players games do it all the time to fix over powered issues that break the game.

    Nerfs are going to happen, it's the nature of the beast. Adapt, overcome, and have fun.
    Last edited by Fraktyl; 11-07-2011 at 02:57 AM.

  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by tichai View Post
    Constantly nerfing/buffing classes causes major outrage within the community, nerfing in particular.
    You're confusing the small vocal minority who inhabit web forums with the 'community' at large, the only ones who are loloutraged are those who are clueless, which you are if you really think there is never a case for a nerf.

    Quote Originally Posted by tichai View Post
    but I feel it is not in the best interests of the game in the long run.
    Your idea certainly isn't.
    Last edited by Kragorn; 11-07-2011 at 03:03 AM.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    You're confusing the small vocal minority who inhabit web forums with the 'community' at large, the only ones who are loloutraged are those who are clueless, which you are if you really think there is never a case for a nerf.
    I had better add you to that list then

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
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    Two problems exist.

    1) Constant buffing leads to stat inflation of the highest variety and constantly increasing ceilings for content. Increase EVERYONES dps output for example and you then ned to retune the raid content etc so that it doesn't becoem trivial.

    2) Nerfing is infinitely easier on the dev team than buffing. Nerfing one ability that is deemed overpowered ismuch easier to implement than buffign 20-30 other abilities of other classes and then dealign with any subsequent imbalance these buffs create when synergy with other abilities is taken into account.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Nerfing is necessary, no team should take the risk of buffing everything each time there is a problem to solve, that just lead to other problem.

    Things should just be done in the right way at start, with solid test, before going on public shard. We should not see all these problems, yes balancing a game is hard, take a long work to do it smart, but it's not impossible.

    People responsible of this job should take more time to test, and do theory crafting, on what player are going to do with most of the thing they will have in hand.

    It's a long job, player have a high interest about game balance, the dev team should really take this problem, and make something playable and not frustrating !
    Last edited by Exterm; 11-07-2011 at 04:58 AM.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by tichai View Post
    I had better add you to that list then
    If you wish, but it's not me making ludicrous suggestions, is it?

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    Your post makes the corners of my mouth twitch slightly in a smile. I hear the words of someone who truly doesn't consider the ramifications of their suggestion fully. As others have said, there are rather nasty consequences for such actions.

    In fact, attempting to buff everyone else to "match" the one thing that is "out of line" can often lead to... more things out of line... which means more buffing.... can we see the endless cycle here? It all leads to an endless broken spiral that can't be fixed, ever. It breaks development and balance by constantly forcing a bizarre upward spiral without end ... and over inflating everything makes designing encounters (and PVP balance) exceedingly difficult or impossible.

    If only 1 thing is out of whack, it makes far more sense to rebalance that (note - rebalance - if that means lower output so be it, that is not necessarily a nerf) then it is to adjust everyone else to a theoretical same level. If everyone else is level and one peg sticks up, it's easier to trim that one then it would be to get new pegs/add more stuff under/etc. to make them match IT, and who knows how that would look then (or work, depending on the item you're envisioning here). "Nerfing" one thing out of place keeps a semblance of balance, and prevents problems.

    Also, a nerf isn't always bad. Oh well, the horror that some damage/healing became slightly less effective! But now you should be more in line with others. You're there because you work well, not because you are OMG OP. (Hell, if that's the only reason someone wanted me around - OPness - I'd be going away quickly.)

    Adding tons more to fix a problem never, ever works. You don't paint the whole car over just because there's one tiny nick in the paintjob. You don't buff the hell out of everyone else because one spec/class/whatever is overachieving. You ONLY buff when it's clearly the better solution to bring up something that is behind several/many other things.

    And despite all good intentions to fix anything/adjust anything, all changes are subject to mathematical and practical exploitation. Love it or hate it, it is a fact of life, and a sort of "arms race" between players and developers. Perhaps if people were less inclined to try and milk everything out of all combinations to get the "100% super bestest" and make everything else look bad, we wouldn't need nerfs. ;) (I kid, really - people doing math is all fine and good, but when people pretty much go "oh hey, this is SO much better then everything else there's no reason to be anything else" and there's really NO choices... that's not what developers want to see. They didn't put a ton of effort into ALL these other things, just to have people only use 1 or 2 things ever. Otherwise, we'd only HAVE those options to begin with.)

    TL;DR - numbers are evil, and people need to realize that rebalancing is necessary. If this means a nerf or buff, it needs to happen. Quit looking at it like a personal affont. This is an MMO, there's plenty of people to consider. Oh, and while they can test and theorize a TON, until it's live, and in people's hands, you never know the true depth of what people will try to do.

    Nothing is fool proof to a talented fool.

  9. #9
    Rift Master youkiddingme's Avatar
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    The only bad thing about nerf is that trion does not explain it reason behind the nerf. It also always seems to mess up something else in the process of a supposed fix. That in turn messes up more things. Till in some point itís just broken.

    If a person let his or her mechanic work on their car with such lack luster care about what is broke. This is what I think Trion does on class to anther class. I would fire that person. It is getting ridiculous on how the nerfs are being handed out. The fact is they need a surgeon touch to nerfs. Right now they got a guy with a sledge hammer saying, is that enough?

    Sorry I understand balance. But looking at all four class and the nerfs from beginning. It starts looking like they just say this looks broke and everyone one line says it broke. So letís fix that. Without stop and looking at what they are fixing or how it affects the mechanics of the game. That why people hate the nerf bat. Its not bat, itís a sledge hammer with a giant brute swing it with all his might. With the hope he is fixing the problem.

    If you donít believe me, just look at last nerf and warrior tanks. They still are having agro issue after the last nerf. I say we get a mob together and kill that giant and hire a surgeon in his place. Then it would not be as bad as it is now.
    Let freedom ring and all trolls hide under the bridge

  10. #10
    Plane Walker
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    A game needs a balance between what players can do and what the game requires players to do or there would be no sense of progression and achievement. Without nerfs this balance would be impossible to maintain.

    If you don't nerf then content must be buffed which is the same thing as a nerf but a LOT more risky for the devs to do and arguably impossible in a reasonable time frame. If you do not buff content it becomes very boring very fast except for those that only play to dress their dollies in pretty epics.

    Really this is one case where you should be very careful what you ask for.

    EDIT: This is nothing to do with the competence of Trion to do nerfs or buffs effectively, that is a different subject altogether. It took me 5 minutes to realised MM was Op and tank threat was screwed in 1.5 so how Trion did not pick that up is beyond me.
    Last edited by Zartanic; 11-07-2011 at 06:03 AM.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    1) Constant buffing leads to stat inflation of the highest variety and constantly increasing ceilings for content. Increase EVERYONES dps output for example and you then ned to retune the raid content etc so that it doesn't becoem trivial.

    2) Nerfing is infinitely easier on the dev team than buffing. Nerfing one ability that is deemed overpowered ismuch easier to implement than buffign 20-30 other abilities of other classes and then dealign with any subsequent imbalance these buffs create when synergy with other abilities is taken into account.
    I am not advocating continual buffs, the game is only 8 months old and we are not even close to an expansion yet, so surely there wasn't any huge discrepancies in class balance originally?

    Some minor tuning here and there maybe and a few bug fixes should have been enough?

    OK, so maybe nerfing may be easier for the devs but they are not slow in bringing out patches, would it not be better to introduce minor buffs to certain classes one or two at a time to bring them up a little and see how it works?

    It just strikes me as odd that a game which was new, different and fun to play a few months ago has suddenly ended up being severely imbalanced and broken and in need of some severe nerfs/buffs?

    Was it really that bad in the beginning?

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Leoknife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exterm View Post
    Things should just be done in the right way at start, with solid test, before going on public shard. We should not see all these problems, yes balancing a game is hard, take a long work to do it smart, but it's not impossible.
    I want to point out here,as a professional software developer. Yes I get paid to code. It IS IMPOSSIBLE to test every scenario a large user community can come up with and meet deadlines to bring in revenue. For without that revenue, your position as a developer will evaporate like morning due off the lawn.

    QA is a tricky tight rope. You do regression testing to make sure things you fixed don't show its ugly face again, you try to break to your best ability, you test and retest. You give it over to beta users (ie. players on the PTS shard) but you can never replicate the possibilities that live, large user communities can come up with. Its only when software goes live, when you see some interesting things develop.

    I for one like the Hotfix process. It allows quick patching when logs show something very out of order.

    People need to remember that their view of whats in balance is very myopic. Its a solitary perception of events and conditions. You never see all the parameters and were never meant to. The developers get to see the true overall picture. And their interest is always what is for the best interest of the overall game for they have the true impetus to see this happen. Their pay check. Player base calls for buffs/nerfs are often not in the overall best interest of the game because they are usually tainted with self bias and are based on a perception that is missing key variables.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Thank you Leoknife for the explanation, it certainly clarifies things a bit better

  14. #14
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magrothen View Post
    Two problems exist.

    1) Constant buffing leads to stat inflation of the highest variety and constantly increasing ceilings for content. Increase EVERYONES dps output for example and you then ned to retune the raid content etc so that it doesn't becoem trivial.

    2) Nerfing is infinitely easier on the dev team than buffing. Nerfing one ability that is deemed overpowered ismuch easier to implement than buffign 20-30 other abilities of other classes and then dealign with any subsequent imbalance these buffs create when synergy with other abilities is taken into account.
    Unless the content was already designed around a certain level. Lets look at dps. Trion designed HK around the dps of melee warriors. They buffed MM yes but only so that they essentially finally challenge melee warriors what a crying shame. Mages needed a TAD love because they were a tad behind. Clerics I have no clue what they need to do with you necause increasing your ST dps to be PvE competitive would create true PvP nightmares.

    Trion set the bar and now they need to deal with it and if someone who rolled fotm 3 months ago gets bent their calling is no longer "da man" well tough.

    A smart dev staff that designs stuff around long term planning and not nerd rage would wait until their next "end game" content is introduced. You then design the content and redefine the bar around this new design. You do the redesign holitically telling the players exactly what the plan is so they know what to expect and don't get the excuse of "i rolled this because it was fotm and now its not!!"

    They are going to either have 3rd tier PA be meaning full or have a level cap increase at some point because there are limits to how far you can expand with gear. When tou hit this point use it as a clean slate so to speak. Anyone who really thinks the balamce is WAY off with the possible exception of clerics is smoking something illegal in most states but emo rather rhan reason appears to rule the day again.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched terran698's Avatar
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    i half agree with what the op said, nerfing always angers people. i think this is mostly because they(game developers) never do little nerfs like if a spell or talent is too powerful do maybe 3 small nerfs instead of 1 major nerf. would give you more information on how your changes effect the players and would allow you to fine tune the amount you change spells/talents letting you get the "magic number".

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