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Thread: Cookie cutters!

  1. #1
    Shadowlander Karhu's Avatar
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    Default Cookie cutters!

    Are there any cookie cutter builds? Of course there will always freekin be cookie cutter builds FOR A CERATIN TASK, FOR A CERTAIN CALLING (aka class). The thing is that, instead of the game system determinating what you actually want to do, in this game you determine your motivation yourself. Your optimal build for this calling will follow that. How do you like that?











    I do.

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara Ixath's Avatar
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    Any type of point system will create a cookie cutter system with limitations. I don't think we determine our motivation any more with all the souls available than we would on a game with one type of each class.

    In the end, there will be a "highest burst dps" build, there will be a "highest sustained," "best HOTs," "best DOTs" etc and so on.

    Any game that limits the players with a point system is setting this up. There are only so many ways those 10 points can go into something and be useful.

    I don't believe there is a single system in any game that can prevent this from happening.

    Rift allows for more situational builds with the role shifting, and allows you to do a little bit more mixing of the classes, but there will ultimately always be one best way for everything.

    Unless your goal is to specifically be mediocre at everything, when you're doing a tough zone you're going to have to be in that maxxed spec, whether it's taking, dps, healing or buffing.

    All my opinion.
    Last edited by Ixath; 01-13-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    There will most likely be, as you said, certain cookie cutter builds for certain types of encounters and play-styles. There will be the best HoT healing, tank healing, group healing, etc. specs for healers, the best single-target, AoE, etc. specs for DPS, and the best single-target, magic-target, AoE tank specs for tanks. Right now it is not clear what these will be, as they will only be revealed by thorough testing and theorycrafting. One thing that might detract people from these cookie-cutter builds as opposed to WoW is the greater diversity and flexibility that is granted when choosing talent points in Rift.
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  4. #4
    Champion Swift's Avatar
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    Default Cleric

    There are so many different souls/options that it is extremely hard to narrow down the "cookie cutter" trees, especially without even experiencing endgame. I'll be healing endgame, so I'll post a few of my favorite specs I've thought of.

    <Warden> Pure raid healing. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...17,5_&lang=eng

    <Warden> Raid/tank/5man healing. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...17,5_&lang=eng

    The following is an overall interesting build. It takes advantage of two different mana return abilities, battle rez, the sentinel's strongest heal, while still getting the key Warden abilities.... this build is looking better and better, and I can see it becoming really popular.

    <Warden/Sentinel> BR/Mana Return. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...17,5_&lang=eng

    PvP wise, I haven't figured out which soul points I prefer in the Templar tree. This would be the first PvP healing spec I would try out.

    <Warden> PvP healing. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...18,5_&lang=eng

    For the trolls: I don't claim any of the above to be "cookie cutters."
    Last edited by Swift; 01-14-2011 at 07:48 PM.

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Ixath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubster101 View Post
    There will most likely be, as you said, certain cookie cutter builds for certain types of encounters and play-styles. There will be the best HoT healing, tank healing, group healing, etc. specs for healers, the best single-target, AoE, etc. specs for DPS, and the best single-target, magic-target, AoE tank specs for tanks. Right now it is not clear what these will be, as they will only be revealed by thorough testing and theorycrafting. One thing that might detract people from these cookie-cutter builds as opposed to WoW is the greater diversity and flexibility that is granted when choosing talent points in Rift.
    I can see the last part (diversity and flexibility) being true for a large part of the game but if I'm leading a raid and I know it's going to be difficult, I'm not letting somebody in unless they're going to be doing what we need. Short of an odd fight where you need 10 interrupts and it's a 10 man zone, or something equally as weird, I just don't see the use of spreading the points out too thinly. However, we've also yet to see how skills scale. Those level 25 skills might still be badass at level 50. I dunno.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Onarye's Avatar
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  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Default cookie cutter myths

    it's true the min/maxed builds are a necessary outcome of a point system as described above.

    But I disagree that one is somehow mediochre by not trying to max dps or healing or mitigation. Hybrid roles can be more mmix/maxed than pure play roles. The problem is that it's hard to form groups around hybrids. People need clear roles, and so MMO teams genearlly like the tank, dps, healer pure-play roles because it's easier to manage.

    But it's not necessarily better.

    The other problem is a lack of information about the effects of buffs/ debuffs and support. It's easiest to measure each persons dps or healing output. But how much of that was from buffs or debuffs from another person? A lot of buff classes that do medium damaged are not considered 'min/maxed' because we can't see how much of the groups dps was from their buffs. The combat log doesn't report that level of detail.

    It's a shame really. I'd love to see min/maxed hybrids and buff/debuff classes become cookie cutters.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched
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    Coookie cutter, is for people who suck at games. Its the innovators that are always wrecking fase! But if you want to be one of the facerolling zergballers then yea cookie cutter away.
    Last edited by Erongada; 01-13-2011 at 06:43 PM.

  9. #9
    Champion of Telara BucMan's Avatar
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    Default

    Ideally the developers set up the talent trees so that you don't have just one optimal build and the rest trash. They should strive to have multiple builds within a soul setup so that while one may be optimal, others are still viable. (Optimal 100%, viable 90-95%) It appears that way in Rift with the way you can mix abilities from certain souls.

    I mean, some of the 51 point abilities aren't all that from a pure spec standpoint. Not only that, some of the soul branch abilities from some trees aren't worth filling in all the branches. I mean, how much help does a pure marksman looking for raid DPS get out of taking the talent that increases the movement speed buff from swift shot by a second. Sure, 51 point talents might be useful, but those 3 wasted ability points miight be better spent on another tree. And in the case of marksman it's a retreat ability that teleports you backwards 20 yards. Way useful in PVP but in a raid raw DPS setting?? Not that great.
    Last edited by BucMan; 01-13-2011 at 07:03 PM.
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  10. #10
    Rift Chaser RadioD's Avatar
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    Cookie Cutter builds are the one great inevitability and one great fear i have for RIFT as the soul system currently stands.

    With all 3 souls being interchangeable it means in the end there will be ONE best tank soul/spec combination, ONE best DPS soul/spec combination and ONE best healing soul/spec combination, and as such, entire souls may end up being marginalized as it's swapped out for this week's flavour of the month.

    I think Trion could go a long way to mitigating this eventuality by locking the Primary Soul. I mean sure, this may just mean less of the cookie cutter specs are rolled in the first place, but it also means those of a different primary soul are forced to innovate or reroll, they can't just throw aside the identity of their toon so easily.

    I know, a lot of people may cry out at the idea, but i personally feel it necessary.
    Last edited by RadioD; 01-13-2011 at 07:14 PM.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple pokett's Avatar
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    there's more than one way to skin a cat. fortunately for us, Rift isn't making it easy for us to figure out which way is best, so we'll all be skinning cats for months to come before folks figure it out.

    i also think a lot of choices come down to preference vs. requirement. one might dps with a pet out, others might prefer to heal as they dps, or tank as they heal as they dps. still others might prefer to stand inside a glowing red X marks the spot as they dps. all roads lead to skinned-cat, i don't know that it matters too much which road is fastest.
    Last edited by pokett; 01-13-2011 at 07:16 PM.

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  12. #12
    Rift Chaser RadioD's Avatar
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    Yes. It's true, many people will choose to play a class because they like the mechanics or they have a particular favourite "theme" they like to play (I'm definitely guilty of this one- chloro or warlock may make my archon better, but he wont be all earthy and volcanic and cool without his elemental splash points).

    But these sorta players are definitely in the minority. The majority are people who want the MOST power, the BIGGEST advantage, the EASIEST way to victory.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple pokett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RadioD View Post
    Yes. It's true, many people will choose to play a class because they like the mechanics or they have a particular favourite "theme" they like to play (I'm definitely guilty of this one- chloro or warlock may make my archon better, but he wont be all earthy and volcanic and cool without his elemental splash points).

    But these sorta players are definitely in the minority. The majority are people who want the MOST power, the BIGGEST advantage, the EASIEST way to victory.
    i'll give you an example: i had originally planned to go elementalist 44 and the rest in chloro for healing. but after testing pyro a bit, i decided flicker was a must have ability (even tho i was less than enthused about the rest of pyro). THEN, someone mentioned a playstyle with pyro that made me rethink my strategy, and now i'm starting to think elementalist might become soul #2, and of all crazy things, warlock #3. no more chloro.

    now, the only reason i've decided to change my playstyle was because i wanted to encorporate flicker. no dps at all, flicker, but i stand by the theory that you can't dps anything when you're dead. this is what i mean when i say, people will choose playstyles for specific mechanics they find indispensible, over purely a numbers-based decision. having said that, though, dps is still on my mind for this build, or i'd have picked a different main soul :P

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  14. #14
    Rift Chaser RadioD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokett View Post

    now, the only reason i've decided to change my playstyle was because i wanted to encorporate flicker. no dps at all, flicker.
    HAH! for AGES i refused to give up my points in pyro because i wanted to keep flicker SO bad, DPS/support buffs be damned! a mage has to have a teleport, dammit. haha

    My PvP spec will DEFINITELY feature Flicker and i will spam him often.
    Last edited by RadioD; 01-13-2011 at 10:57 PM.

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Concept2's Avatar
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    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...nts=0&lang=eng

    Pretty cut and dry ele/pyro build specced to bring imp. exposure into the mix. Since builds can vary so drastically i don't think there will be many cookie cutters. If someone else was bringing imp. exposure debuff i would change and run

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...ul3_talants=0#

    for a little more DPS with the imp. ground of power and an extra AoE to get Withering Flames.

    I think the same is going to go for every build. Raid guilds are going to want the buffs/debuffs and will take any effective build that's going to bring them.

    Edit: Also, since BUFFS are pretty well split up between the different souls, it seems there will not be many souls that are worthless. Archon for example is terrible DPS but brings buffs that will increase every other players DPS, making them useful. I think that a lot of builds will focus around getting as much DPS as they can while still brining that one crucial buff.
    (elemental mage builds do not do as much damage but bring a spell power buff, they also mix well with pyro. If an ele/pyro does 5% less damage than pure pyro but gives everyone 10% SP, it would be worth it just from the extra healing given to the resto classes)
    Last edited by Concept2; 01-13-2011 at 11:16 PM.

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