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Thread: Are there any good 'flat' builds across 3 souls? How could we encourage them more?

  1. #1
    Prophet of Telara
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    Default Are there any good 'flat' builds across 3 souls? How could we encourage them more?

    So, most builds that we see, focus on one main soul, put fewer points into a second soul... and often zero, or only a few into a third soul. Some pour all the points they can into a single soul and only raise secondary souls when they hit the point caps for their level. At best, we occasionally see builds with fairly equal points between two souls.. but then next to nothing in the third soul.

    But this means that some of the potential for real flexibility in character building actually disappears. If flatter builds can be strong and functional, then the number of viable builds increases considerably.

    So my two questions:
    1) Are there any good 'flat' builds with approximately equal points in all three souls?

    2) What could we change in the system to make flatter builds more attractive?
    Don't get me wrong. There's a great deal of flexibility in the system already... but I'd like to see it live up to its full potential. Call me greedy

    [edit] Adding an idea I had later in the thread as an example of the sort of thing I had in mind:
    For example: each tier in the soul tree usually has the same "Must have XX points invested" value. What if that value were dropped by 1 or 2 points, if you had some points invested in all three souls on the tier below (except perhaps for the first tier)? That way, you could generalise more across the three souls, but reach up to higher tiers a little more quickly than those who specialise in only 1 or 2 souls.
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    Last edited by XtremElement; 01-13-2011 at 04:02 PM.

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    Champion ComaEtilico's Avatar
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    we can't speak about encouraging a thing when we have not yet tested anything...

    also there are a lot of build aut there that spend no more than 32 or 34 point in a single soul with the same amount spent all over the other 2 soul... personaly one of the build that I will try once reached the cap will be one with 26/25/15 point...
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  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara
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    Well... there's been a fair bit of testing in beta so far. I'm not talking really about end-game builds... though those too are of interest, but rather about flatter builds generally. So are there some 30pt and 40pt builds that work well with a flat distribution across 3 souls? Most of the builds I've seen have at least one soul that is at zero or just a few points in it.

    Maybe there are ones that have flatter distributions, that's why I'm asking. And if there are relatively few... then perhaps there's something we could suggest in the mechanics of the trees, to encourage flatter building as we level up?

    I'm asking questions really... not stating a position.

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    Champion MadMainer's Avatar
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    I don't know about perfectly flat builds, but for warrior at least there are builds with moderate points put into each of the 3 souls. One souls almost always has a few more points in it though.
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    Shadowlander Solmane's Avatar
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    I can see what your saying here. Maybe something that gives a synergy when maybe 28 or 30 points have been reached in all three souls. An incentive to diversify?

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    the class defining root abilities tend to preclude flat type builds. Plus (and i find this especially in the warrior class) there is a ton of overlap in the spells in the first 15 points in any given soul. which means you have a lot of abiltiies, but they are all similar type spells fighting for the Same GCD's.

    Most of the 51 point roots dont seem to be worth it at first glance though. playing with the soul planner so far, i usually end up with two 32-point souls or one 32 point soul and the remaining points split between the other two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedallus View Post
    the class defining root abilities tend to preclude flat type builds. Plus (and i find this especially in the warrior class) there is a ton of overlap in the spells in the first 15 points in any given soul. which means you have a lot of abiltiies, but they are all similar type spells fighting for the Same GCD's.

    Most of the 51 point roots dont seem to be worth it at first glance though. playing with the soul planner so far, i usually end up with two 32-point souls or one 32 point soul and the remaining points split between the other two.
    Same here. 51 pt abilities are not worth the points invested usually.
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  8. #8
    Prophet of Telara
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    Maybe something that gives a synergy when maybe 28 or 30 points have been reached in all three souls. An incentive to diversify?
    Yup - if there were some added benefit to generalising a bit more, it might make for some more viable flattened builds.

    For example: each tier in the soul tree usually has the same "Must have XX points invested" value. What if that value were dropped by 1 or 2 points, if you had some points invested in all three souls on the tier below (except for the first tier)? That way, you could generalise more across the three souls, but reach up to higher tiers a little more quickly than those who specialise in only 1 or 2 souls.

    Perhaps it's more a mage thing, since I prefer to play mages, that's where my focus has been. But I see a lot of builds with 0 pts in the third soul... or builds that have a shape like 20/13/6. My own Ele/SC/Dom was something like 18/16/0.

    It just seems to me that flatter builds tend to be under-powered when I try them out in a soul builder... not always, but mostly. If there were some way to encourage generalisation a bit more, then there would be more 'viable' builds available overall.

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    Last edited by XtremElement; 01-13-2011 at 03:27 PM.

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    Champion MadMainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtremElement View Post
    Yup - if there were some added benefit to generalising a bit more, it might make for some more viable flattened builds.

    For example: each tier usually has the same "Must have XX points invested" value. What if that value were dropped by 1 or 2 points, if you had some points invested in all three souls on the tier below (except for the first tier)? That way, you could generalise more across the three souls, but reach up to higher tiers a little more quickly than those who specialise in only 1 or 2 souls.

    Perhaps it's more a mage thing, since I prefer to play mages, that's where my focus has been. But I see a lot of builds with 0 pts in the third soul... or builds that have a shape like 20/13/6. My own Ele/SC/Dom was something like 18/16/0.

    It just seems to me that flatter builds tend to be under-powered when I try them out in a soul builder... not always, but mostly. If there were some way to encourage generalisation a bit more, then there would be more 'viable' builds available overall.

    X
    There is a synergy like that with at least some talents. Each soul passives are calculated individually which means if you have more than one of the same passive you will gain more.

    Example:
    200 endurance + 15% endurance (Paladin) = 230 + 15% (Reaver) = 265 + 15% (VK) = 305 instead of 200 + 45% = 290
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  10. #10
    Shield of Telara
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    The best vanilla MT build seems to be one with points spread pretty evenly between Paladin/Reaver/Warlord. There are almost zero 51 point skills in the Warrior souls that are useful from a MT perspective.
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  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara
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    Hehe... so for warriors, you want the pressure to be the other way. 51 point abilities need to be improved to increase specialisation.

    Maybe it is just a mage thing then...

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  12. #12
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    Although... just one thread down as I post, is a warrior build thread that starts with these posted for feedback:

    VK 51/Ch 15/BM 0

    VK 38/Ch 7/BM 21

    VK 38/Ch 7/Vn 21

    VK 40/Ch 5/Vn 21

    which are by no means balanced. And none of the builds in this warrior build thread or this one are balanced ones... maybe there are some balanced warrior builds, but it doesn't look like the majority of them are.

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    Last edited by XtremElement; 01-13-2011 at 03:51 PM.

  13. #13
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    I don't know, I've just been scanning through the first few pages of this forum - and the vast majority of the builds posted for all archetypes aren't really 'flat' balanced ones. I think it's a pretty general issue that applies to all four archetypes.

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  14. #14
    Rift Disciple Raidus's Avatar
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    Yeah, those ones were mine. :P I tend to prefer specializing over spreading out though.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMainer View Post
    There is a synergy like that with at least some talents. Each soul passives are calculated individually which means if you have more than one of the same passive you will gain more.

    Example:
    200 endurance + 15% endurance (Paladin) = 230 + 15% (Reaver) = 265 + 15% (VK) = 305 instead of 200 + 45% = 290
    I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, else some things will be getting out of hand.

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