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Thread: Are there any good 'flat' builds across 3 souls? How could we encourage them more?

  1. #16
    Prophet of Telara
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    Not to rain on the parade here, but with the option of having roles, does an individual build matter? If players can have up to 4 roles per character, won't they have a variety of builds?

  2. #17
    Rift Disciple
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    Once you have 22 points in two trees, its just more interesting to get the top tier stuff instead of putting 22 points into a 3rd soul and getting alot of redundant skills and roots, and trying to avoid alot of talents because they buff those skills your not going to use all the time.

    You only need so many basic attacks/heals/spells that fill the early talents and roots of most souls.
    Last edited by Niminion; 01-13-2011 at 04:22 PM.

  3. #18
    Plane Walker Concept2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtremElement View Post
    So, most builds that we see, focus on one main soul, put fewer points into a second soul... and often zero, or only a few into a third soul. Some pour all the points they can into a single soul and only raise secondary souls when they hit the point caps for their level. At best, we occasionally see builds with fairly equal points between two souls.. but then next to nothing in the third soul.

    But this means that some of the potential for real flexibility in character building actually disappears. If flatter builds can be strong and functional, then the number of viable builds increases considerably.

    So my two questions:
    1) Are there any good 'flat' builds with approximately equal points in all three souls?

    2) What could we change in the system to make flatter builds more attractive?
    Don't get me wrong. There's a great deal of flexibility in the system already... but I'd like to see it live up to its full potential. Call me greedy

    [edit] Adding an idea I had later in the thread as an example of the sort of thing I had in mind:
    For example: each tier in the soul tree usually has the same "Must have XX points invested" value. What if that value were dropped by 1 or 2 points, if you had some points invested in all three souls on the tier below (except perhaps for the first tier)? That way, you could generalise more across the three souls, but reach up to higher tiers a little more quickly than those who specialise in only 1 or 2 souls.
    X
    Move buffs and crucial DPS talents lower in the trees while making CC and other 'niche' talents higher up. It would encourage less PURE builds and more hybrid buff/deeps builds. other than that it is unlikely people will pass up on 31 point talents all together.

  4. #19
    Plane Walker Djevik's Avatar
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    I'm thinking maybe Chloromancer/Pyromancer with either Necromancer or Elementalist might do that.

    Off the top of my head:
    22pts in Necromancer or Elementalist for the pet and it would be somewhat talented.
    22pts in Chloromancer for the healing, and MT(?) target healing buffs for your pet.
    22pts in Pyromancer would give you nuking, talented Magic Circle for mana regen.

    Personally, I'd lean towards Necromancer as the pet looks better.

    I could see how it might get a little busy tho at the start of combat.
    For the Chloromancer, there's a few spells you'd want to cast early, to help with healing, etc.
    For the Necromancer, there's a few spells you'd want to cast early to help the pet's damage, Consumption for you, etc.
    For Pyromancer, aside from nuking, I can only think of getting down Magic Circle early to assist with Mana Regen, but that can be done before combat starts, as long as you don't have to move to and thus recast it to regain the effect.

    Djevik

  5. #20
    Rift Chaser RadioD's Avatar
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    The only problem i have when looking at tri-soul specs is that you end up with so many abilities that all perform similar functions, and you're forced to take many talents that enhance all these abilities. In the end half of them will remain un-used and that's alot of wasted soul points.

    This is especially heightened by Trion's decision to make earlier levels in souls yield more abilities quicker, and it slows down as you get into the higher levels of the tree.

    I think even tri-souls could be more interesting if abilities became available quicker at higher soul levels, but started off slower, with the more class-defining abilities available rather than just another strike or just another bolt for every soul.

    Of course i'm sure this would mean people stuck with a soul that DIDN'T start with a simple strike or bolt may find themselves having a rougher time of it, but these would generally be souls used for healing or support that wouldnt often be seen solo or as primary souls
    Last edited by RadioD; 01-13-2011 at 11:36 PM.

  6. #21
    Prophet of Telara
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    Not to rain on the parade here, but with the option of having roles, does an individual build matter? If players can have up to 4 roles per character, won't they have a variety of builds?
    Hehe... like I said... mebbe I'm just being greedy.

    I do agree with Concept though... maybe some of the more basic things like buffs/DPS abilities could come down the trees a little and more niche things might move further up.

    X

  7. #22
    Shadowlander Solmane's Avatar
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    One thought is to focus on what you want to from the lower half of the trees.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...18,5_&lang=eng

    Ele/Archon/Pyro build that looks to max effect on Fireball (+20% crit, damage, burn over time, mana return on crit) and resistance debuff rotation. Not a flat build across all trees but pretty balanced.

    Set up ability bars pretty much ignoring non fire ele/archon abilities. Kind of like old school pen and paper mages... What mage memorizes every spell in his spell book every day?

  8. #23
    Champion MadMainer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond View Post
    I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, else some things will be getting out of hand.
    I confirmed this personally with both endurance and armor in B4. Now, it might change... who knows... but as of last beta that is how it worked.
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  9. #24
    Rift Chaser RadioD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solmane View Post
    One thought is to focus on what you want to from the lower half of the trees.

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...18,5_&lang=eng

    Ele/Archon/Pyro build that looks to max effect on Fireball (+20% crit, damage, burn over time, mana return on crit) and resistance debuff rotation. Not a flat build across all trees but pretty balanced.

    Set up ability bars pretty much ignoring non fire ele/archon abilities. Kind of like old school pen and paper mages... What mage memorizes every spell in his spell book every day?
    That's not bad actually, ignoring some of the "flavour" abilities the pyromancer has, but you can't argue with bonus archon aura utility and the extra crit and damage(from exposure) in Elementalist

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14031925/rif...18,5_&lang=eng

    That was my tweak, taking burning bonds out since you have Encase in the ele tree if you ever feel the need.

    Also took Altruist and Mental Flare out of the Archon tree, just because you have the bonus mana regen from Imp Regen in the pyro tree and Revitalise in the Elementalist tree, as well as the bonus crit from Elementalist synergising with the archon's Exilharation

    These bonus points allowed me to sink 5 in imp Exposure, so really it was a tradeoff for more damage over mana efficiency. Also gets you Elemental Forces for spike damage moments in the ele tree. This also makes it 21/19/26, a little more "flat".

    Your way is just as valid, just an idea.
    Last edited by RadioD; 01-14-2011 at 02:19 AM.

  10. #25
    Plane Touched Adaqshiel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlienFromBeyond View Post
    I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, else some things will be getting out of hand.
    Eve had a multiplicative effect to its skill ranks too...

    i.e., "+5% per rank" means 1.05*1.05*1.05*1.05 (rank 4) = 1.2155 (a bonus of 21.55% actually applied) instead of 5 * 4 = 20%

    Eve kept a lot of decimal places and used them in calculations even if the fraction wasn't shown in your info.

    the difference is actually small with a small number of separate multipliers (for example, with only three different souls contributing the same bonus type, you wouldn't really see any outrageous scaling effects), so i'm not worried about it at all.

    another example, +15% endurance from three souls would be

    1.15 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 52.08% bonus instead of 45% which isn't gonna break anyone's game.

    i would say it's actually a better way of handling the multi-soul-limited-points-to-distribute problem! would definitely give you something to consider about spreading points around "too thin"

    i think the real problem is that the last four spells in your Roots cost way too many points in almost every case. they should tone down the expense of those later Roots, definitely because it would be bad design to buff the 51-point spells enough to make them worth getting.

    consider: their main selling point for this entire game is the multi-soul character build system. we shouldn't feel like we're missing important stuff by putting our severely-limited points in two or more souls, and we shouldn't feel like we need to completely ignore 1/3rd of our soul potential to reach effective power in our "main" soul. it completely defeats the purpose, i feel, of the three-soul build concept. it's fine to reduce the number of new Roots we get access to as we put more points in a soul, but it shouldn't completely cut us off from the main, soul-defining abilities just to make use of even one other soul, nevermind the third!
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