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Thread: A newbie's assorted Justicar Questions

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Cool A newbie's assorted Justicar Questions

    I keep thinking of more and more things about the Justicar because it interests me so much. I enjoyed playing a Dervish in Guild Wars: Nightfall, and it seems like the Justicar has a similar playstyle (lots of buffs, some DPS, some ability to help allies).

    Any and all answers are appreciated, long or short.

    1. What are your overall impressions of the soul?

    2. Does it look like Justicar-centric builds are viable (PvP or PvE)?

    3. Is the healing from Salvation and Reparation useful or negligible? What if it were used in conjunction with a DPS class (such as Inquisitor or Cabalist) for a "Shadow Priest" or "Vampiric Embrace" playstyle?

    4. Do Shield of Faith and the Shaman's Thick-Skinned stack? Is there an easy way to tell if similar buffs in Rift don't stack?

    5. Do Justicar-centric builds suffer from major problems? (For example, I hear that the Cabalist has annoyingly long cast times.)

    6. Do you think a Justicar-centric build would be adequately useful in a raid or in PvP? Offense-oriented or tank-oriented?

    7. Is the Bahmi racial doubly effective for Justicars due to Cavalier?

    8. Does the Warden's "Destructive Tide" (at the bottom of their tree) affect Justicar melee abilities like Strike of Judgement? Would it stack with Hammer of Virtue?

    9. What souls besides Druid and Shaman have good synergy with Justicar?


  2. #2
    Plane Touched pkudude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykinius View Post
    1. What are your overall impressions of the soul?

    I love it so far (level 15) and am (again so far) planning on making it my primary soul to use after the game launches.

    2. Does it look like Justicar-centric builds are viable (PvP or PvE)?

    Define "viable?" I know in PvE so far it's rocking my world. Vs solo mobs I finish fights vs 3 opponents with full health and mana. In rifts and invasions if I get aggro even when not in tank stance (sorry. . . Mien of Leadership. . .) I can keep myself up long enough for a warrior tank to peel aggro from me, and maybe even have a few of the elite mobs taken out.

    3. Is the healing from Salvation and Reparation useful or negligible? What if it were used in conjunction with a DPS class (such as Inquisitor or Cabalist) for a "Shadow Priest" or "Vampiric Embrace" playstyle?

    It's useful. It's not enough (so far) to keep me healed up to full, but it effectively reduces the incoming dps by (it feels like) half to 2/3. Toss an occasional Doctrine of Bliss and I stay topped up nicely. So far I've only paired it with the Shaman for dps and it seems a very powerful combo. Most of the Justicar heals need to be fired by Justicar abilities for full effect, so the Shaman's passive buffs that improve the Justicar skills/spells seem to provide a nice boost. I don't know if the caster-type dps classes would do as well. But I haven' ttested yet, so I couldn't say for sure.

    4. Do Shield of Faith and the Shaman's Thick-Skinned stack? Is there an easy way to tell if similar buffs in Rift don't stack?

    I've taken both and I seem to take less damage, so I think they stack.

    5. Do Justicar-centric builds suffer from major problems? (For example, I hear that the Cabalist has annoyingly long cast times.)

    Not that I've seen so far. Everything's an instant cast, mana use is low and I've got regen abilities anyway, defense is good, dps is decent. My only real gripe is that the healing of others is done by group heals so far. I don't have a direct heal from my Justicar tree to cast on anyone except myself.

    6. Do you think a Justicar-centric build would be adequately useful in a raid or in PvP? Offense-oriented or tank-oriented?

    Don't know. I don't really plan on raiding of pvp'ing, so I haven't thought in that direction. As it is, so far I seem to be a fairly offense-oriented tank.

    7. Is the Bahmi racial doubly effective for Justicars due to Cavalier?

    No idea. I haven't paid attention to racial stuff yet. My Justicar is Mathos for now, though may change once I pay attention to races. I don't see any problem or disadvantage to being Mathos.

    8. Does the Warden's "Destructive Tide" (at the bottom of their tree) affect Justicar melee abilities like Strike of Judgement? Would it stack with Hammer of Virtue?

    It affects spells, (eg Bolt of Radiance) not attacks (eg Strike of Judgement). Hammer of Virtue is a buff to melee, so I don't see it stacking with Destructive Tide.

    9. What souls besides Druid and Shaman have good synergy with Justicar?

    I'm totally loving the Justicar/Shaman/Warden combo. The warden's water jet is a very nice spell, the HOT adds enough healing to help keep me up without needing to cast Doctrine of Bliss all the time. Shaman's melee buffs greatly aid the Justicar's dps, which in turn increases the Salvation heals. I haven't tried adding a druid in the mix yet to replace Warden. Adn tbh, I really can't see a Justicar *not* taking Shaman as secondary. The buffs are too useful.

    My answers and uninformed opinions in red

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    This is from the perspective of a healing Justicar i.e. Justicar/Sentinel/Warden so understand my focus is on group support, grouping in general, PvP and instances. I will not comment on raid specualtion as that is what it is right now... speculation


    1. What are your overall impressions of the soul?

    Augments a healing build very well, the insta heals and HoTs fill in nicely between the other souls main heals. From what I can see the Justicar is a bit of a late bloomer, in the Iron Tombs (instance) there was NO way I could keep the group up fully speced Justicar but having a nice split served us well.

    2. Does it look like Justicar-centric builds are viable (PvP or PvE)?

    As main anything? I dont BELIEVE so, as support and secondary roll filling - yes. MAYBE as a main tank depending on your group and later content but more testing needs to be done

    3. Is the healing from Salvation and Reparation useful or negligible? What if it were used in conjunction with a DPS class (such as Inquisitor or Cabalist) for a "Shadow Priest" or "Vampiric Embrace" playstyle?

    Initially you watch those tiny heals tic off and you dont see the use but soon as you start building into the skills and getting the bonuses you start seeing the reactive heals come into their own, they wont keep YOU or your group up ENTIRELY on their own but they really take the pressure off.

    4. Do Shield of Faith and the Shaman's Thick-Skinned stack? Is there an easy way to tell if similar buffs in Rift don't stack?

    They should, the buffs that do not stack often say something along the lines of: "Only one of such and such may be active at any given time"

    5. Do Justicar-centric builds suffer from major problems? (For example, I hear that the Cabalist has annoyingly long cast times.)

    Nothing stands out in particular, they like all souls are designed around what you do with the REST of your points really and how you wish to play

    6. Do you think a Justicar-centric build would be adequately useful in a raid or in PvP? Offense-oriented or tank-oriented?

    Again useful is subjective but yes, all classes are USEFUL in PvP they make great mage killers Ive found - By the time a mage figures out he cant stand toe to toe with you and burn you down hes usually turnning to gain some distance and dieing = ) In PvE I forsee the Justicar as being a god send when your tank goes down and the aggro all runs to the healer (if you have two other heal souls slotted) with Justicar you should be able to quickly switch to temp tank said mobs and get through a tough situation

    7. Is the Bahmi racial doubly effective for Justicars due to Cavalier?

    Would have to look into this!

    8. Does the Warden's "Destructive Tide" (at the bottom of their tree) affect Justicar melee abilities like Strike of Judgement? Would it stack with Hammer of Virtue?

    Destructive Tide, as it states only affects SPELLS

    9. What souls besides Druid and Shaman have good synergy with Justicar?

    Again, Im a healer at heart Ive found the Sentinel and Warden work very well with the Justicar, you can easily swap in Purifier if you wish more big number slower cast heals. My plan is to take Justi to the top of the skill tree then either focus on a single soul or split evenly between Warden and Sentinel

    On a side note the Inquisitor has some solid CC type stuffs that may work well with the Justicar in PvP in terms of "catching" an enemy then smashing him into the ground.
    Last edited by triton900; 01-12-2011 at 11:47 PM.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by triton900 View Post
    On a side note the Inquisitor has some solid CC type stuffs that may work well with the Justicar in PvP in terms of "catching" an enemy then smashing him into the ground.
    I played Justicar/Inquisitor and really liked it. Besides the life based damage spells from Inquisitor that will give you convictions, I liked having the inquisitor armor buffs.

  5. #5
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    if you spec full dps, 2h no shield you become a passable healer - maybe not a main healer for dungeon/raid but still really usefull and with good dps (points in shaman/druid helps a lot with this).
    if you spec full block, 1h+shield you get to be a really good tank - only limit is that against multiple foes balancing aggro and mana usage becomes difficult, your multitarget skills for keeping aggro burn mana like nothing.
    a good spec for pvp could make you really, really hard to take down, keep in mind that you have few ranged skills and on long reuse timers so kiting could be a problem - till you get your charge skill at least...

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara Jazebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykinius View Post
    I keep thinking of more and more things about the Justicar because it interests me so much. I enjoyed playing a Dervish in Guild Wars: Nightfall, and it seems like the Justicar has a similar playstyle (lots of buffs, some DPS, some ability to help allies).

    Any and all answers are appreciated, long or short.

    1. What are your overall impressions of the soul?

    It's on of my favourite PvE souls

    2. Does it look like Justicar-centric builds are viable (PvP or PvE)?

    For pve yes, they are amazing off tank with healing, or decent main tanks. For PvP you can tweak them around so they are tough to take down, see good use for them in the Black Garden, but don't expect to be a dps powerhouse.


    3. Is the healing from Salvation and Reparation useful or negligible? What if it were used in conjunction with a DPS class (such as Inquisitor or Cabalist) for a "Shadow Priest" or "Vampiric Embrace" playstyle?

    In pve, the healing you get from salvation and reparation is just enough for you and your party using your melee skills. In groups, it's only good when you are off tank and with Mein of Honour. It could work with Inqui or Cab, but the time before you heal might be a bit long. Also it's best to use Even Justice is it will grant you the most healing done, at a high cost of mana though.


    4. Do Shield of Faith and the Shaman's Thick-Skinned stack? Is there an easy way to tell if similar buffs in Rift don't stack?

    So far all the passives seems to stack. It's the active buffs that sometimes don't stack, like the sentinel heroic blessing doesn't stack with the bard endurance buff.


    5. Do Justicar-centric builds suffer from major problems? (For example, I hear that the Cabalist has annoyingly long cast times.)

    Salvation, reparation doesn't work on dots, and if you aoe or use the group heal alot your mp goes down quick.


    6. Do you think a Justicar-centric build would be adequately useful in a raid or in PvP? Offense-oriented or tank-oriented?

    Tank oriented, with switching between mein of honor when not targeted, and to mein of leadership when targeted.


    7. Is the Bahmi racial doubly effective for Justicars due to Cavalier?

    Not sure only played Kelari or high elf Justicar.


    8. Does the Warden's "Destructive Tide" (at the bottom of their tree) affect Justicar melee abilities like Strike of Judgement? Would it stack with Hammer of Virtue?

    No, strike of judgement are melee skills, not spells. Your bolt of radiance will be affected by it


    9. What souls besides Druid and Shaman have good synergy with Justicar?

    Inquisitor for the extra defense buff, and since Inquisitor uses life based spells which trigger Cavalier


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    Thanks so much, everyone! I now know that spell != melee attack. It sounds like it's a jack-of-all-trades sort of class, with some damage, some passive healing, and some tanking ability. It's a master-of-none (except maybe tanking), but it sounds like it'll be a good ally to have because of its overall usefulness.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    I would like to trow this out here as a possible answer to question 9.
    Justicar AoE-Healing Tank

  9. #9
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    Any and all answers are appreciated, long or short.

    1. What are your overall impressions of the soul?
    I like the soul. I plan on playing with a set of three friends and we will need a passable tank at times. I generally prefer to play a healer so this simply makes sense for me.

    2. Does it look like Justicar-centric builds are viable (PvP or PvE)?
    PvE they do well solo or in groups. I have not PVPed with it, but the class is very prone to being kited and DPS, specifically burst, is low compared to other classes. You would last a while, but you wont be killing many people in open PvP.

    3. Is the healing from Salvation and Reparation useful or negligible? What if it were used in conjunction with a DPS class (such as Inquisitor or Cabalist) for a "Shadow Priest" or "Vampiric Embrace" playstyle?
    I got to level 19. The healing is generally negligible. It does help top off the team, but you are not going to function as a main healer without a significant investment into a healing soul.

    4. Do Shield of Faith and the Shaman's Thick-Skinned stack? Is there an easy way to tell if similar buffs in Rift don't stack?
    Yes.

    5. Do Justicar-centric builds suffer from major problems? (For example, I hear that the Cabalist has annoyingly long cast times.)
    Managing mana usage is a pain. This really didnt start to kick in until 18+. A secondary soul like warden will help where the HOT can offset some healing. I found Mein of Leadership useless solo because it kills your DPS and healing ability. Without it you take a bit of damage and some form of healing really decreases downtime. Reliance on Justicar healing is good while solo but it places an additional drain on your mana and in groups it requires some really quick fingers to keep more than the main tank healed.

    One other thing to note. Look at the top of the Justicar tree and you will notice that most skills are geared towards tanking. Assuming Justicar is your main soul and the biggest skill point investment, the higher level you get the more time you will spend in this role.

    The biggest issue I have with Justicar revolves around their mechanic. When you are fighting harder mobs that are doing fair amounts of damage, you do have to heal yourself. You end up in a situation where you are attack, heal, attack, heal,attack, heal in order to keep convictions. You are effectively cutting your DPS and healing in half with the global cool down. If you have to turn tail and run, you are dead with no CC and no convictions to heal.

    6. Do you think a Justicar-centric build would be adequately useful in a raid or in PvP? Offense-oriented or tank-oriented?
    I vote no. Tanks will tank significantly better. They have better tools for AOE threat and their mitigation will be better due to higher block and parry rates as well as better shields and plate armor. I see a Justicar as a great small group tank where you have the CC to manage adds or multiple pulls. I dont see it handling boss mob spike damage well.

    In PVP you cant heal if you cant melee and this will be an issue for any class that can keep you at range. You can outlast many classes in melee, but spike and ranged damage will be an issue. Classes that can strip buffs will be a constant pain.

    7. Is the Bahmi racial doubly effective for Justicars due to Cavalier?
    Dunno

    8. Does the Warden's "Destructive Tide" (at the bottom of their tree) affect Justicar melee abilities like Strike of Judgement? Would it stack with Hammer of Virtue?
    I feel a significant investment in shaman is required to keep your DPS viable and Justicar is a soul that requires a large investment to fill its role. That doesnt leave much for other souls. If you arent using Justicar (or Inquisitor) Light based attacks you arent building convictions and all of your heals are unusable so using attacks from other souls is pointless.

    9. What souls besides Druid and Shaman have good synergy with Justicar?
    Shaman is almost a requirement to make your melee damage passable and the damage shield really helps for multiple mobs. I would rather not rely on a weak pet for healing so the druid is out. That leaves warden and sentinal as choices for me and it really comes down to HOT or instant for their 0 point heals. If I am going to be a healer I will use a different role without Justicar.

    -Vanven

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanven View Post
    5. Do Justicar-centric builds suffer from major problems? (For example, I hear that the Cabalist has annoyingly long cast times.)
    Managing mana usage is a pain. This really didnt start to kick in until 18+. A secondary soul like warden will help where the HOT can offset some healing. I found Mein of Leadership useless solo because it kills your DPS and healing ability. Without it you take a bit of damage and some form of healing really decreases downtime. Reliance on Justicar healing is good while solo but it places an additional drain on your mana and in groups it requires some really quick fingers to keep more than the main tank healed.

    One other thing to note. Look at the top of the Justicar tree and you will notice that most skills are geared towards tanking. Assuming Justicar is your main soul and the biggest skill point investment, the higher level you get the more time you will spend in this role.

    The biggest issue I have with Justicar revolves around their mechanic. When you are fighting harder mobs that are doing fair amounts of damage, you do have to heal yourself. You end up in a situation where you are attack, heal, attack, heal,attack, heal in order to keep convictions. You are effectively cutting your DPS and healing in half with the global cool down. If you have to turn tail and run, you are dead with no CC and no convictions to heal.

    6. Do you think a Justicar-centric build would be adequately useful in a raid or in PvP? Offense-oriented or tank-oriented?
    I vote no. Tanks will tank significantly better. They have better tools for AOE threat and their mitigation will be better due to higher block and parry rates as well as better shields and plate armor. I see a Justicar as a great small group tank where you have the CC to manage adds or multiple pulls. I dont see it handling boss mob spike damage well.

    In PVP you cant heal if you cant melee and this will be an issue for any class that can keep you at range. You can outlast many classes in melee, but spike and ranged damage will be an issue. Classes that can strip buffs will be a constant pain.
    These two answers in particular are super-helpful, Vanven. Thanks!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanven View Post

    In PVP you cant heal if you cant melee and this will be an issue for any class that can keep you at range.
    Any life based damage ability will give you a conviction, including a life based damage spell. While you wouldn't be a very good healer at range doing this, you can burn a few instant life damage spells to give you a few convictions for heals.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mykinius View Post
    I keep thinking of more and more things about the Justicar because it interests me so much. I enjoyed playing a Dervish in Guild Wars: Nightfall, and it seems like the Justicar has a similar playstyle (lots of buffs, some DPS, some ability to help allies).

    Any and all answers are appreciated, long or short.

    1. What are your overall impressions of the soul?
    I really enjoyed it. In particular, for doing rifts without a party, read as with nobody healing me, it seemed the most durable tank due to being able to heal myself.
    2. Does it look like Justicar-centric builds are viable (PvP or PvE)?
    I didn't get a chance to run any dungeons, but I would hope that a Justicar tank would be viable for PvE. As far as PvP goes, I made a good fang holder but was not able to really heal or dps all that well. I mainly hoped on running in and getting them to focus me, which often worked.
    3. Is the healing from Salvation and Reparation useful or negligible? What if it were used in conjunction with a DPS class (such as Inquisitor or Cabalist) for a "Shadow Priest" or "Vampiric Embrace" playstyle?
    The healing is rather nice, especially if you use a 2-Hander. For just normal questing with a mage it was typically the only healing needed unless we pulled several at a time. In terms of keeping somebody up that is getting hit by something that puts up some more damage, rifts or dungeons in particular, you could think of it like a free HOT. It is not going to keep any tank alive, but it does make the healer's job easier.
    4. Do Shield of Faith and the Shaman's Thick-Skinned stack? Is there an easy way to tell if similar buffs in Rift don't stack?
    As stated before, they stack.
    5. Do Justicar-centric builds suffer from major problems? (For example, I hear that the Cabalist has annoyingly long cast times.)
    Mana was an issue if you have to use the group healing doctrine or the aoe attack. These problems would largely go away with more points to put into souls though I imagine, and properly using your mana restoring abilities.
    6. Do you think a Justicar-centric build would be adequately useful in a raid or in PvP? Offense-oriented or tank-oriented?
    Definitely tank oriented. For offense one would be better off going shaman or druid.
    7. Is the Bahmi racial doubly effective for Justicars due to Cavalier?
    It is not. I wondered this as well and tested it on a level 1 bahmi. The buff was applied to Attack and Spell power before cavalier kicked in. As an example, 10 attack and 10 spell is normally 20 and 10 with cavalier. With the racial and cavalier it would be 28 and 14(10x1.4 + 10x1.4 for attack).
    8. Does the Warden's "Destructive Tide" (at the bottom of their tree) affect Justicar melee abilities like Strike of Judgement? Would it stack with Hammer of Virtue?
    No, as stated earlier.

    9. What souls besides Druid and Shaman have good synergy with Justicar?
    Personally, I used Druid. For low levels it is nice with 2-points, or 0, as you get the damage shield earlier than you would from shaman. Ultimately druid will have it's failings later on (a weak pet that isn't keeping up with you), at which point Inquisitor, Sentinel, and Warden seem to have their place, for the reasons stated above me.
    Hopefully this helps. One other things to note, many seem to think Justicar will be an offtank of sorts primarily. Currently I believe they will be capable of being a MT, though of course that is theory without practice. If they can't tank at all, even offtank, I would expect Trion to buff them so that they can, considering they are listed as a tank; so it seems acceptable to assume they will be a tank ( if not now then eventually ).

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara Jazebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamwsat View Post
    Hopefully this helps. One other things to note, many seem to think Justicar will be an offtank of sorts primarily. Currently I believe they will be capable of being a MT, though of course that is theory without practice. If they can't tank at all, even offtank, I would expect Trion to buff them so that they can, considering they are listed as a tank; so it seems acceptable to assume they will be a tank ( if not now then eventually ).
    They can tank just fine, only downside they are not really good at holding multiple aggro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvenTheSlender View Post
    Any life based damage ability will give you a conviction, including a life based damage spell. While you wouldn't be a very good healer at range doing this, you can burn a few instant life damage spells to give you a few convictions for heals.
    This is true assuming you take a second soul with a life based range attack. The Justicar has one on a 8-10 second cool down and you must be facing the target so you cant be running away. Inquisitor would be great, or a secondary soul with a heal spell, even on a cool down. Anyway, point being an out of the box Justicar cant do this well.

    -Vanven
    Last edited by vanven; 01-14-2011 at 07:48 AM.

  15. #15
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    Ok, here's another stackability question....

    Does Cavalier (Justicar) stack with Power of the Fae (Druid) ? It seems like it wouldn't because the passive buff and augmentation is so drastic, but I don't see any signs that they don't stack. (I suppose I could just test it next beta, but I'm curious if anyone has tried this yet.)

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