You want equal dps

[Forsake]

Thats what alot of the non pvp based complaints are about.. Mages need a dps buff.. rogues need a dps buff.. clerics need a dps buff.. warriors need a nerf. If its not that its about equal tanking.

If you feel you deserve competitive dps.. I want competitive healing. I want competitive support. Why should any class be competitive with a dps/tank class if they can do the others?

Yet you still feel entitled to it, thats fine. lets just make every class have the same abilities then each person can decide what roll they choose at the time..Since you all also want diversity, well where do we find ourselfs ?

Give up on the quest for exact same dps, unless your willing to have every rift player sign a thread that requests trion give rogues and warriors all the same support / healing capabilities you have.

And give up on this you wear plate bs..how many abilities in your trees say phyical damage ? Because thats all armor mitigates.

[ShazzamCrucia]

Honestly I just want more diversity in rogue PVE specs. I'm cool with being below the top warrior dps specs. Naturally everyone wants their class to be better and better.

On an aside, why would anyone complain about another class getting a PVE DPS boost? More dps in the raid benefits the raid in many situations. Just trying to protect your epeen?

As far as pvp goes I think most of the complaints center around things that aren't directly related to raw dps, i.e. survivability, riftwalk, shield+burst, some wonky mechanics, OGCD strings, etc. (not that I agree with these things, just saying)

One big difference I notice between my rogue and the warriors in my guild is that they can sustain higher dps in a pvp brawl than I can. I.E. having pocket heals on me is kinda useless once I'm outside my 15 seconds of cooldown-induced glory. The warriors seem to be less reliant on mechanics in that regard, thus having pocket heals on them benefits them greatly. Personally I like having the option to stealth, jump people, have some goofy utility specs and generally be a pain in the *** in pvp. Are there several rogue trees that need some serious work? Yeah. Is it game-breaking? Not quite.

Rivers of tears on class forums in any MMO can safely be ignored for the most part.

[Fatalflaw]

Honestly, I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it's the truth:

Warrior needs to be slightly higher in single target DPS or they will not be invited as a dps. That leaves tank as the only viable slot in raids for a warrior, and that means most raids would end up with 1 or 2 warrior tanks and the dps will be filled out by mages and rogues mostly.

I know people don't want to hear that but as long as warrior cannot switch to a support or healing role for different encounters, we will have to have the dps to make us worth bringing to a raid.

Just think about it. A rogue can go bard and buff the group, add healing, debuffs, a little dps. A cleric has the best heals and can also tank and aoe dps.. mages offer buffs, heals, or dps as well.

There's a reason why raiding guilds specify they are looking for mages and rogues to fill dps spots. Warrior spots are hard to get in raids even when they are the best dps. Further, reducing warrior dps also eliminates a big part of the reason to have a buffing warrior since freeze armor only helps other dps warriors and the tank can keep spotters up.

So yeah.. warriors don't need their slight 150dps advantage nerfed.

[InferiOmega]

Thats what alot of the non pvp based complaints are about.. Mages need a dps buff.. rogues need a dps buff.. clerics need a dps buff.. warriors need a nerf. If its not that its about equal tanking.

If you feel you deserve competitive dps.. I want competitive healing. I want competitive support. Why should any class be competitive with a dps/tank class if they can do the others?

Yet you still feel entitled to it, thats fine. lets just make every class have the same abilities then each person can decide what roll they choose at the time..Since you all also want diversity, well where do we find ourselfs ?

Give up on the quest for exact same dps, unless your willing to have every rift player sign a thread that requests trion give rogues and warriors all the same support / healing capabilities you have.

And give up on this you wear plate bs..how many abilities in your trees say phyical damage ? Because thats all armor mitigates.

Mages are already the best healers, Bards are more support than healing, and Mages can't tank. Soooo, that leaves us with the fact that every class can natively DPS. Since it's the only thing that exists across the board, everyone should do it competitively. You need twice as many DPS in any 5 man dungeon and several times as many in any raid than you do any one other role.

It's stupid to assume that Warriors should be able to heal. They can already support, although they (strangely) can't queue as such, despite having excellent buffing and debuffing and CC tools.

Which brings us to the point: Since Warriors are already the best DPS and the best Tanks, **** off.

Honestly, I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but it's the truth:

Warrior needs to be slightly higher in single target DPS or they will not be invited as a dps. That leaves tank as the only viable slot in raids for a warrior, and that means most raids would end up with 1 or 2 warrior tanks and the dps will be filled out by mages and rogues mostly.

I know people don't want to hear that but as long as warrior cannot switch to a support or healing role for different encounters, we will have to have the dps to make us worth bringing to a raid.

Just think about it. A rogue can go bard and buff the group, add healing, debuffs, a little dps. A cleric has the best heals and can also tank and aoe dps.. mages offer buffs, heals, or dps as well.

There's a reason why raiding guilds specify they are looking for mages and rogues to fill dps spots. Warrior spots are hard to get in raids even when they are the best dps. Further, reducing warrior dps also eliminates a big part of the reason to have a buffing warrior since freeze armor only helps other dps warriors and the tank can keep spotters up.

So yeah.. warriors don't need their slight 150dps advantage nerfed.

Reference the 'Support Warrior' above. Of course you'll still be brought to raids, don't be silly. Even if a Cleric or Rogue is tanking, the raid still needs Spotter's Order.

[Raitoken]

I think Blizzard said it best when they said "bring the player not the class".

MMOs should be based around that as ones that are unbalanced do not last too long. Now one class in BIS gear having a 5% advantage is fine but the decision to bring someone still should be based on skill and gear and not on class.

[Qaedyan]

I want competitive healing. I want competitive support.

/Jack Nicholson

YOU CAN'T HANDLE COMPETITIVE HEALING OR SUPPORT!

/Jack Nicholson

Sorry, someone had to do it.

[Hunt55511]

You can have equivalent DPS when warriors can heal, rogues can heal, clerics can support, and mages can tank. ALL equally. Until then, stop complaining. If a mage can do healing, have equivalent DPS to a warrior, AND fill a spot that is REQUIRED in all decent raids as support (Archon), there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever to bring a warrior outside of ONE warrior tank for Spotter's Order. If a cleric could do equivalent ST DPS to a warrior, there would be no reason to bring a warrior outside of ONE warrior tank for Spotter's Order. If a rogue could do equivalent ST DPS to a warrior, there would be no reason to bring a warrior outside of ONE warrior tank for Spotter's Order....Are you getting where I'm heading with this?

Name one reason you would ever bring a warrior if (Enter class of your choosing) did equivalent ST DPS to a warrior. ONE. Because they stand in melee? Yeah.....Mages/Clerics/Rogues can all do that too. Their attacks (Minus MM/Ranger) are not exclusive to being at range. So before you QQ because X calling cannot do equivalent DPS to a warrior, think about how it would make an ENTIRE CALLING obsolete in raids minus one slot for Spotter's.

Kthnxbai.

[Forsake]

Mages are already the best healers, Bards are more support than healing, and Mages can't tank. Soooo, that leaves us with the fact that every class can natively DPS. Since it's the only thing that exists across the board, everyone should do it competitively. You need twice as many DPS in any 5 man dungeon and several times as many in any raid than you do any one other role.

It's stupid to assume that Warriors should be able to heal. They can already support, although they (strangely) can't queue as such, despite having excellent buffing and debuffing and CC tools.

Which brings us to the point: Since Warriors are already the best DPS and the best Tanks, **** off.




Reference the 'Support Warrior' above. Of course you'll still be brought to raids, don't be silly. Even if a Cleric or Rogue is tanking, the raid still needs Spotter's Order.

So you want it all but dont want warriors to have any of it.. and warriors as support.. lol seriously.. since half of our "calls" wont stack with other classes..your forced to choose.. and would you rather have an archon + bard or a warrior support ?

Its so funny when you mention that warriors should have superior dps to other classes.. and then you say.. well if you dont agree then shouldnt I as a warrior get your abilities too.. and the answer you get is hell no its absurd to think of a warrior healing..

And oh yes my epeen great reference since apparently its your epeen your worried about since you want equal dps without giving up your other abilities.. you want both while others get none.. think about it.

[Skel]

They can already support, although they (strangely) can't queue as such, despite having excellent buffing and debuffing and CC tools


Reference the 'Support Warrior' above. Of course you'll still be brought to raids, don't be silly. Even if a Cleric or Rogue is tanking, the raid still needs Spotter's Order.

Uh what?!?!? You think warriors having spotters qualifys them as a support class? Also news flash, spotters is accessible as a tank, warriors arent being brought along for support roles.

[InferiOmega]

Uh what?!?!? You think warriors having spotters qualifys them as a support class? Also news flash, spotters is accessible as a tank, warriors arent being brought along for support roles.

My point was that they could be. And for the game to be really balanced, clerics and rogues should be able to tank as well as warriors in the majority of situations.

So no, if a Justicar or Riftstalker is tanking, you're obviously not guaranteed spotter's from the tank. And any raid that doesn't have a warrior tank is severely gimping themselves by not providing it from another source.

Beastmasters have support abilities in their group buffs, Warlords provide good group buffs even beyond spotter's order, etc. Regardless of whether you can queue for a dungeon as support with such a build is irrelevant, it's a raid, they bring you along and you do what you do, regardless of the little symbol next to your portrait.

Bring the player.

[Ryadic]

Let's do a simple breakdown of the classes and what they are capable of. Then we can analyze the breakdowns to determine which should be best at which. Keep in mind this is a generalization and isn't definitive. Just so you know, my main is a warrior. So my knowledge of the other classes is a bit fuzzy as to what they are capable of.

Warriors - Tank and DPS.

Mages - DPS, Support, Healer.

Clerics - DPS, Support, Healer, and Tank. (They can queue Experts with all four, right? I'm unclear about what Clerics really are capable of.)

Rogue - DPS, Support, and Tank.

Standard party calls for 4 roles. 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 Support, and 2 DPS. Support is not a necessity, so they are more of a spec the role that's needed most. Sometimes it is support. Other times it is DPS or healer. As such, Mages, Clerics (assuming they can queue as support), and Rogues have a significant advantage over warriors when it comes to queueing for dungeons.

Everyone can DPS. So we'll cover that last.

Let's cover tanking. Warriors, Rogues, and Clerics can all tank. Warriors are the best. Rogues, then clerics. Warriors can have multiple specs, so they are more versatile and can go into a dungeon and should be able to do decently well in all fights. Just switch to a spec that's best for that particular fight. Clerics and Rogues each have one spec for tanking. So they are not as versatile as warriors. Rogues are great at holding aggro on a single target. Warriors are best for multiple targets. Clerics aren't best at anything.

Healing can be mained by a cleric or mage. Clerics have multiple specs (similar to warriors tanking) and mages have 1. Rogues can backup heal as support, but cannot main it. (Again, this is what I've noticed and I'm not 100% sure if this is the case). As far as who is best between clerics and mages when it comes to healing, I don't know. I think they are both great at different things. I don't personally have a preference.

Support is not necessary, but can help. Support can just make the party better overall at what they're doing. So if one area of the party isn't necessarily lacking and needing a significant boost, support can boost all those areas at once. Useful, but more often than not, you're going to want an extra DPS or healer. At least, that has been the case for me in most dungeons.

Now on to DPS. This one really needs to be analyzed more. Of the above 3 roles, only one can warrior queue up for. And even then, getting the necessary toughness is more difficult than getting the necessary hit to join expert dungeons.

There are two forms of DPS. Ranged and melee. Because of this, the amount of actual DPS that is done should be varied between the two. Melee should, in all cases, do more DPS than ranged. Why? Risk and reward, my friend. Risk and reward. Low risk low reward. High risk, high reward. What does this mean? Well simply put, the bigger the risk the bigger the reward. Melee is a much higher risk DPS than ranged. You're up in the face of the monster. Cleaves and AoE attacks put you at significant danger. If you die, you do *ZERO* DPS.

The previous paragraph makes sense to everyone, right? It is logical, no? Risk and reward should ALWAYS be factored into situations like this.

Where does this put warriors? Clerics and Rogues can DPS either melee or ranged. Mages are forced to do ranged. Warriors are forced to do melee.

Do you see what I'm getting here? Here's what DPS should look like:

1. Warriors
2. Melee Clerics/rogues
3. Mages
4. Ranged clerics/rogues

Warriors receive no choice how they DPS. It's melee or go home. You have no say in the matter. Sure, you can try to do ranged DPS, but you could probably be out DPSed by a level 25 mage.

So when that warrior is up in the face of the boss swinging away with his weapon(s), at any point in time he could be killed due to whatever the case. He has to pay more attention to his positioning than the ranged classes.

But, why should melee warriors have a higher DPS than melee clerics or rogues? Because, where's the incentive to put a warrior in your party? If a rogues and clerics can produce similar melee DPS results that a warrior can, why invite a warrior? Why not just put rogues or clerics in your party exclusively? There are fights where melee champions are a liability if they are not careful. Even if they are careful, one slip up can cause problems. Because of this, why not just stack rogues/clerics and have them go melee when there is no threat, and switch to range when melee isn't the best route.

This concept is why balancing PvP in this game is such a task for Trion, but that's not for this thread. Just pointing that out.

[Fatalflaw]

Sadly, it's kinda pointless to explain the reason behind DPS numbers to people who want to view DPS in a vacuum and ignore other role options classes can fill. They just know that when parses get linked at the end of a boss fight it's
->Warrior
->Them
...and they really don't care about anything else because dps is their role of preference so if they aren't on top it's off to the forums. Nevermind if they win aoe dps, win ranged favoring fights, etc.. they can't handle being lower than anyone on a boss parse.

[Skel]

My point was that they could be.

The ONLY unique thing they can provide are three 20 second 5 min recast buffs which are a crutch, and spotters which is already covered by a tank. Warriors by no means have a support role and anyone who thinks they do is just ignorant.

[Volatile1]

OP is an enormous logical fallacy. If we accept that "logic", then a raid needs 4 healers, a Bard, and an Archon. That leaves 14 spots were Warriors "should" be the absolute best choice. That is, plain and simple, absurd. There's no two ways about that.

[Vayra]

Name one reason you would ever bring a warrior if (Enter class of your choosing) did equivalent ST DPS to a warrior. ONE. Because they stand in melee? Yeah.....Mages/Clerics/Rogues can all do that too. Their attacks (Minus MM/Ranger) are not exclusive to being at range. So before you QQ because X calling cannot do equivalent DPS to a warrior, think about how it would make an ENTIRE CALLING obsolete in raids minus one slot for Spotter's.

Kthnxbai.

Name one reason you would ever bring more than 1 rogue (the bard) if they can not deal equal ST DPS to a warrior. ONE. They can range? Mages/clerics do that better. They can tank? Warriors/clerics do it better.

I could make similar arguments for bringing more than 2 mages (chloro + archon) or more than 2/3 clerics.


To put it in simple terms, if warriors are to remain the best tanks, they cannot remain best dps as well.