+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16
Like Tree3Likes

Thread: Why certain Classes cant reach Balance

  1. #1
    pro
    pro is offline
    Rift Chaser pro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    373

    Default Why certain Classes cant reach Balance

    Trion when you balance things you always over do the nerfing/buffing. which leaves certain souls untouched or played. Im gonna speak on mages but some the points go to every class. When you called your self balancing the mage you actually pretty much neutered there damage and unintentionally took away the fun. In this last patch 1.4 you did bring up our damage but why do we depend on another classes buff/skill (spotters orders). If instead you tweak the base damage of spells and there spell power coeffienfients it would be better.
    PvP:
    Also it would also help if you didnt over nerf souls. Like the pyromancer you nerfed the red ball which actually fixed them, then you nerfed GoS, followed by a 20% damage reduction to cinder burst and fulminate, and then you put a 5second window between the spells so they cant be chained which was really where all the burst of the soul came from, and then you put inferno back on the gcd. I personally think if you just put a hard cap on how much damage spells like fulm/cinder could do it would have solved everything wrong with this soul.
    But instead of touching the soul you added a burst spell to the SC tree ??? Not sure where your going with a spell like that in a Aoe tree. Plus this tree is very much of a paper cannon and kinda hard to play in pvp due to cc being immune all the time. Plus in order to build electrify (which can be cleansed another ) you must be still. Which is deadly for any mage in this game because once a melee is on you its game over. which is why when ever i play this soul in pvp i always specc hastened withdrawls and after i use raging storm to build charge im moving the rest of the fight and spamming cloudburst.

    what i would love to see done is to see pyro fixed and mages given more survivabilty whether from the archmage tree or from elementalist. Not sure where alot of souls have defensive talents but none of which are really worth taking. Because to be honest they really dont make a difference. Or you could be like other games and let mages be high damage and cc. But cc has always been a mages defense and currently we havent had it in a loooonnnnnggggg time. I would love to see it back again.

  2. #2
    pro
    pro is offline
    Rift Chaser pro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    373

    Default

    I also forgot to add. How warriors recieved immediate feedback to results which havent even gone live yet concerning dps. while mages can go a whole patch with out hearing anything.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    271

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pro View Post
    I also forgot to add. How warriors recieved immediate feedback to results which havent even gone live yet concerning dps. while mages can go a whole patch with out hearing anything.
    lol Where's this feedback we supposedly got?

  4. #4
    pro
    pro is offline
    Rift Chaser pro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    373

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heguo View Post
    lol Where's this feedback we supposedly got?
    remmber all the flame about SLI nerfs b4 they even went live in 1.3? and then i think a week later there was a post from a moderator saying how they were still looking into it. But how long as pyro been dead now?

  5. #5
    Rift Master Shannae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Note to self, when mage is ranked up, make youtube video and name it "So Pyro is dead?" >.>
    "You're right. Technically he has the right to cry about it. And I have the right to mock him for crying about something stupid." ~Bridgeburner
    "Try to hate other people less, you might enjoy life more." ~Tenet

    73 Likes , 1 Infraction, Liked 228 posts, and counting...

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Anything with cast times will always have too much burst if it competes on dps. The damage is front-loaded (this being the problem), with travel times (especially in this game). Throw in an instant or two and the amount of burst is simply too high for pvp. This results in nerfs which lower the top end damage necessary for competitive dps.

    There is an exception: DoT specs; these have a different but related problem. The total damage of dots scales quite respectably, they do quite a lot of "total damage". With scaling this results in DoTs that can take a huge amount of someones health for 1 global while at the same time hardly scaling in DPS at all. As gear levels increase DoTs contribute less and less dps proportional to the other skills. They simply become ineffective and pointless at a certain point of scaling. Another problem for PvP vs PvE balance which has to be addressed in every game at some point.

    Assuming similar stat inflation to that which we have seen thus far suggests these will become significant concerns in less time than one might expect.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,280

    Default

    Right... mages need more survivability... what a load of crap. Mages get a free pass on their magic damage not being mitigated because theres no resistance in PvP while Rogues and Warriors have lower damage cause everyone mitigates physical damage plus Warrior and Rogue magic damage scales by 0% since attack power only increases physical damage.
    Last edited by Vindicit; 08-19-2011 at 07:11 PM.

  8. #8
    Rift Master A Mage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    692

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindicit View Post
    Right... mages need more survivability... what a load of crap. Mages get a free pass on their magic damage not being mitigated because theres no resistance in PvP while Rogues and Warriors have lower damage cause everyone mitigates physical damage plus Warrior and Rogue magic damage scales by 0% since attack power only increases physical damage.
    LOL, hey Vin! I see you all the time in WFs. You suck ***. <3 And you're a rogue, so you know NOTHING about mages.
    Xail - R41 Mage
    Guardian
    <We Are Legend>

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Azguard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    457

    Default

    Mage should be about using cc and escapes to survive, they can't stand there and eat shots which is why mages are cannon fodder in pvp in this game. Mages should be about high burst potential but it should take skill and proper use of abilities chaining all while using cc and escapes to avoid death by melee. Mages should have wide use of fears, polymorphs and snares as primary defense with mana drains against Clerics.

    Warriors should have high survivability from damage, high thoroughput, be the most susceptible to snares and roots but have the most gap closers and interrupt abilities. Warriors should charge and interrupt a lot.

    Rogues should have high burst damage with cooldown abilities, high dodge, the most stuns in game to lock down warrirors/mages/clerics, move behind, backstab and stealth and high movement speed. Rogues should stealth, stun, and use cooldowns.

    Clerics (depending on spec) will mirror mostly the mage and warrior profiles I've listed. Healing focused clerics should be very difficult to kill by a single player but likewise should not be able to kill anyone while in a full healing spec. Justicar/druid/shaman clerics should mirror warriors, inquisitor/cab/purifier/warden/sentinel should mirror mages. Clerics should have silences to use against mages.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    439

    Default

    I feel like I'm getting quite gd with my Pyro/Elem/Archmage spec - It has high burst output and lots of cc and escape options. I've got good at using Flicker and such followed by some kind of cc.
    However it seems that a rough estimate of 75% of the time the opponent is immune to every cc spell I throw at them.
    I think every 'cc immunity' ability should be removed totally - There should ONLY be abilities that can break you out of cc or dispel debuffs, not make you totally immune.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser Osmosis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    389

    Default

    I think CC in this game is still broken, I'll use flicker to escape, try and root someone and they are iimmune but I have rogues / warriors on me that seem to be able to spam chain CC I just don't get it, where's my immunity :P

  12. #12
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmosis View Post
    I think CC in this game is still broken, I'll use flicker to escape, try and root someone and they are iimmune but I have rogues / warriors on me that seem to be able to spam chain CC I just don't get it, where's my immunity :P
    yes, I cant agree with you more. That is all my cry about. The immunities. why the hell mages got 5-6 cc abilities if we wont able to use them. Just give mages some burst instead of them so maybe we can do some descent st damage instead of those useless aoe abilities whose are easyly outhealed by wardens/chloros.

    In my opinion rogues are not an issue. It may be because of my build but I mostly dont use my cds against an assassin or another melee type of rogue. I mostly scared by the MMs if I have to scare from a rogue. I got 2 pvp specs. one is full chloro and the other is a simple necrolock. I hate trion's forcing mages to use domi-chloro, pyro-chloro, chloro-lock why we have to use chloro? I will tell you why. because we cant stop you and have to heal ourselves that is our only chance to survive your burst damage which we dont have and probably will never have.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Capri Moon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    295

    Default

    Mages are heavily reliant on CC. CC is not reliable in it's current iteration.

    Not to mention mages are by a million miles the most difficult class to play well in both pve and pvp.
    There are warriors, clerics and rogues in my guild that have fantastic success playing with xbox controllers because they can.....

    Mage problems in pvp are a combination of casting times, frailty if you're not chlorolock, and diminishing returns being a free pass to getting destroyed because CC is our main defense.
    Last edited by Capri Moon; 08-20-2011 at 05:33 AM.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Azguard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    457

    Default

    Blink doesn't work sometimes. You teleport forward but you're still stunned... And 15 yards is nothing, especially when the melee are immune, immune, immune, and just run back to you in 2 seconds.

    I certainly hope Trion is going to redesign this whole cc immunity/diminishing returns issue.

    It hurts mages the most because we use cc and escapes for defense or to position ourselves prior to opening an attack or to adjust/set up rotations, whereas melee currently are using this cc immunity and diminishing returns offensively!

    They really need to fix this system not just for mages, but for all players. I'm guessing a caster cleric or ranger doesn't like seeing immune plastered on the screen and then getting face smashed in 3 seconds either.

    I can see why Trion thought it was a good idea to implement this cc immunity/diminishing returns, but it's a failure. Removing DR is actually much more preferable to the current climate.

    DR is more of a requirement if there was arena in this game where you could lock down 1 guy indefinitely, but for warfronts where it's 10 or 15 people teams, I say bring it on.

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    306

    Default glass cannons can not work

    I don't work for Trion, but I do develop for another AAA mmo studio, so here is some actual professional feedback on the topic (as opposed to armchair developing)

    The whole concept of "glass cannon" is broken. Period. End of line.

    There is no way you can possibly balance it, no one ever has, no one ever will. All you end up with is either a DPS arms race, or a CC arms race. If the glass cannon has enough dps to kill the melee before they get into range, they win 100% of the time (assuming they are not dumb as a sack of wet cats), if they do not, then the melee will eat them alive. Same goes for CC... either they have enough CC to lock down their opponent, or their opponent has enough CC-breakers to close the gap.

    You can not base survival around how fast you die, nor can you base how fast you die around how much DPS you can dish out. This applies to both burst and sustained dps. If the cannon is in the lead, then the rest of the game will complain until they get the tool(s) needed to survive, at which point the cannons will complain that all their tools are now useless until they get an even bigger tool with which to compete.

    So long as mages (and to an extent, rogues) are glass cannons, they will NEVER be balanced, they will either be extremely overpowered, or complete jokes, nothing in between. The trick to balanced PVP is to have similar survival tools (outside of CCs) paired with similar DPS/burst numbers across the board.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts