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Thread: Re-tweaking Rift class balance (very long)

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default Re-tweaking Rift class balance (very long)

    Hello All,
    This isn't your typical rant or rave about my class is horrible etc. It's more about discussing ways to improve the way the mechanics are with Rift, also looking for new ways for Trion to improve classes across the board. Please add your constructive thoughts.

    I've played 2 classes so far up to 50. Even raided with them in PvE. A warrior and a rogue. I've played many other MMO's over many years now. The variety and ways you can adjust your class is un-paralleled with Rift. However, there are gleaming differences between Rift and other MMO's.

    I know Rift Dev's wanted to be different and make each of the classes viable in all the main roles a fantasy game has. Rogue,Mage,Healer,Tank. That's great, adds tons of options. The thing is Trion…you can't make all these classes superior in ALL the roles. Which by your LFG tool, would be DPS, Tank, Heals,and Support.

    Playing a rogue,I que up for T2’s as both dps and support. But to be honest, it's not often I'm told to stay in my bard spec. Especially if theres a cleric onboard. Most of the time they handle heals just fine and the group as a whole would like my DPS to get through the instance faster and move on.

    Anyway, (i'm getting off track here)....There's a couple things I think Trion needs to look at. In a very serious manner. First off, stop trying to balance PvP with PvE changes. It's futile, and will never ever work.Just…please..stop it. Look to your peers over at Sony with EQ2. They changed the ruleset and mechanics for PvP only servers, and for their version of warfronts. The mechanics are adjusted when you play on a PvP server, or once you enter a warfront. It's working out nicely for them, and they did this early on.

    The next thing to look at is how DPS is classified. Mages should be at the top, then Rogues, then Warriors. Warriors perhaps in a tie with Clerics. (I'm sorry warriors, but DPS'ing IN PLATE ARMOR on par with rogues is really stretching and/or breaking the game.) Maybe your trying to do this already? I haven't seen anything stating this, so can only speculate. This is the way it's been for countless other games and really should be just made the gold standard. If players find a way to out-damage a mage with a cleric? So be it, but it should be only one specific spec that could possibly allow it. Like I said, I've played 2 melee DPS classes. I like them both, but the rogue should be out-pacing the warrior by miles when it comes to DPS. Which right now, doesn't seem to be the case.

    Please don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for a nerf to ANY classes. I just think the mechanics of the game should be changed a bit. From reading other posts, I'm seeing what I believe is the problem(at least on the melee side). Warriors only need 3 attack points to use a finisher. Rogues need 5. Don't you think in reality it would reflect the other way around? A warrior in plate will certainly hit harder with a huge halbard or double axe etc. But they shouldn't be able to swing it nearly as fast as a rogue duel wielding 2 daggers. The attack point system needs to be flipped and reduced from 5 to 4. Rogues-3 points, Wars-4 points.

    There should also be evenly matched DPS specs for melee and range respective to their main class. Useable weapons are another tricky subject. Warriors should typically use swords, or swords and shields. There isn’t a spec right now for warriors to use with a shield in terms of any meaningful DPS. You could create or re-tool a soul to make this happen. Perhaps Warlord? It shouldn’t be better than a 2-handed weapon spec or DW spec with 2 swords. But it should be an option, much like a paladin or shadow knight in other games.So that’s my 2 copper. I’m just tired of seeing all the cry about class balance. It’s bringing me down.

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    I actually subjected myself to reading all that..... but taking a step back 30% of your post (looks like a good 3 inches off your 10 inch post) complains about warriors

    And ya stuck warriors on the bottom of your dps tree...
    Last edited by DemonRage; 08-17-2011 at 12:55 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Magnos's Avatar
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    Warriors at the bottom of dps? I'll agree to this if they rename the class "Meat Sack"
    Last edited by Magnos; 08-17-2011 at 12:57 PM.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched
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    Your classification of DPS is flawed. Many DPS warriors prefer leather over plate because the itemization is horrible on the plate. Also the armor value/type only matters if you're the tank. A boss one shots a DPS warrior just as easily as he does a rogue. The armor type offers no value to a PvE DPS'er.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heguo View Post
    Your classification of DPS is flawed. Many DPS warriors prefer leather over plate because the itemization is horrible on the plate. Also the armor value/type only matters if you're the tank. A boss one shots a DPS warrior just as easily as he does a rogue. The armor type offers no value to a PvE DPS'er.
    And so? Should a leather Rogue not perform on par with a leather Warrior in the same role as melee DPS? I'm not about making one better or worst than the other, but with equal gear and itemization, should the 2 not be on par with each other?

    Also why is it that the warrior dual wield spec uses both weapons and yet all the rogue dual wields do not (save 2 attacks in blade dancer). Something just seems a little out of whack at the moment.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    I have no problem with "on-par." What I have a problem with is the idea that DPS warriors should do less damage than rogues because they're supposed to wear plate when that armor confers no benefit at all to the DPS warrior. They shouldn't have their potential for damage output limited because they wear plate. The idea that it confers some additional survivability to the warrior is incorrect. Both callings will get one-shotted by a boss if they're in a DPS role.

    As far as why anything in this game is the way it is; I gave up attempting to apply logic to the implementation in this game a long time ago.
    Last edited by Heguo; 08-17-2011 at 01:32 PM.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    Well honestly through your own descriptions, Warrior DPS would decrease on its own by wearing plate do to itemization's, so thus a leather rogue would technically be > a plate warrior for dps, and equal to a leather warrior should things be balanced correctly.

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara DemonRage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimthoughts View Post
    And so? Should a leather Rogue not perform on par with a leather Warrior in the same role as melee DPS? I'm not about making one better or worst than the other, but with equal gear and itemization, should the 2 not be on par with each other?

    Also why is it that the warrior dual wield spec uses both weapons and yet all the rogue dual wields do not (save 2 attacks in blade dancer). Something just seems a little out of whack at the moment.
    I think this is the issue:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreyloch View Post
    I like them both, but the rogue should be out-pacing the warrior by miles when it comes to DPS. Which right now, doesn't seem to be the case.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimthoughts View Post
    Well honestly through your own descriptions, Warrior DPS would decrease on its own by wearing plate do to itemization's, so thus a leather rogue would technically be > a plate warrior for dps, and equal to a leather warrior should things be balanced correctly.
    This is because Trion is horrible at itemizing stats on warrior plate and consequently more than a few raiding DPS warriors wear leather anyway.

    I'm not talking about gear's impact at all. I think that the two callings should have a roughly equal potential for DPS output. Warriors should not have this potential restricted because of some concept people are applying to them based on the armor class they wear.

  10. #10
    Shield of Telara
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    So just from reading the thread title, I knew it was going to be another "nerf warrior dps and buff mage and rogue because of how much armor they have."

    Dear OP: GT#O.

    First of all any talk of armor value needing to be inversely proportional to dps is completely illogical in a PVE environment where any non-tank will be 1 or 2 shot if they pull aggro, regardless of armor. 0 toughness, no shield, no defensive cooldowns, no points in tank spec, I don't care what type of armor you have on, you will die in 1-2 hits if you pull aggro.

    Secondly I think you misunderstand the "role" system in Rift. Classes are meant to be able to fulfill different roles as effectively as each other, give or take a few specialties such as ranged, aoe, single target.

    I'm going to guess you have crap gear, or a crap spec compared to some players of other classes who routinely out dps you, and incite you to post forum QQ asking to gimp them in dps so you can feel special.

    You need to break the WoW mentality of a certain class has only one role and that's it. This isn't wow, even though there are some similarities.. get used to being out dps'd by better players regardless of the type of armor they have on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    We’re generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    R8 Rogue
    R8 Warrior

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