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Thread: Trion why do rogues have to endure a double damage penalty?

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    General of Telara
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    Default Trion why do rogues have to endure a double damage penalty?

    I'm just curious. As it stands right now, the only class that has to deal with armor mitigation in their main pvp specs are rogues. Warriors get riftblade, clerics and mages are magic dmg. before you comment I'm talking about the top pvp specs. Assassin and Night Blade are terrible specs in group pvp. MM provides more utility and better burst. Anyhow, as it stand MM only has a 30% armor ignore (this is from 20% MM spec and 10% infiltrator). Why should their damage take a double hit from armor and valor? I'm curious because as it stand, warrior do more damage, and cleric has better burst with all their +crit modifiers. It seems like we should buff rogue armor pen to put them on a even playing field with the other callings.
    Last edited by xzaar; 08-17-2011 at 02:59 AM.

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    Rift Chaser betty's Avatar
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    Or alternativeley make some MM shots do elemental damage - swift shot does air dmg for eg - atm MM have more of their dmg mitigated than they can mitigate of others dmg. MM are up against valor+armour + any dmg reduction cd that an opponant pops - when on the receiving end of dmg the MM is in the majority of cases receiving elemental dmg and so only has valor to mitigate that dmg - and no dmg reduction cd either. Dodge dodge dodge - not a MM. Block block block - not a MM. Immune immune immune - not a MM.- Parry parry parry - not a MM. Good lord i think i just talked myself into a reroll

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    Champion Skyline's Avatar
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    err... Nightblade is a bad group pvp spec?

    L2P

    Ebon Fury > Improved Hit n Run
    Last edited by Skyline; 08-17-2011 at 03:27 AM.

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    Soulwalker Fireworx's Avatar
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    I think your kinda forgetting that clerics and mages, besides valor, also have magic resistance as a dmg reduction which with some buffs and gear can increase to a decent amount. Besides melee clerics and melee warriors have the same problem with armor + valor so your very short sighted if you think that your rogue is the only class that has 2 dmg reductions

    P.S. Don't some rogue souls already do elemental dmg ?

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    Ascendant Adnoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline View Post
    err... Nightblade is a bad group pvp spec?

    L2P

    Ebon Fury > Improved Hit n Run
    No
    10char

    (Gear)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline View Post
    err... Nightblade is a bad group pvp spec?

    L2P

    Ebon Fury > Improved Hit n Run
    Nice and what will you do when a MM eradicate your ***? Then you are a soft rogue with no burst GG? Maybe you should be the one that learns to play?
    Last edited by xzaar; 08-17-2011 at 04:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireworx View Post
    I think your kinda forgetting that clerics and mages, besides valor, also have magic resistance as a dmg reduction which with some buffs and gear can increase to a decent amount. Besides melee clerics and melee warriors have the same problem with armor + valor so your very short sighted if you think that your rogue is the only class that has 2 dmg reductions

    P.S. Don't some rogue souls already do elemental dmg ?
    There are resists, but you do not get much of it, or in the case of pvp gear, no elemental resist at all. As a result spell damage does not really undergo the default penalty physical dmg goes through. Right now most warriors are riftblade, which is probably the most competitive pvp spec atm. Rogues have a magic damage tree but it is terrible for damage and easily countered by classes with offensive purges.
    Last edited by xzaar; 08-17-2011 at 04:13 AM.

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    The real problem with this game in general is that anything based off attack power scales far worse than anything based off spell power. This affects warriors, rogues, and clerics.

    So physical attacks receive higher mitigation paired with lower scaling...while magical attacks receive lower mitigation paired with higher scaling?

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    Rift Chaser Muzzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phage View Post
    The real problem with this game in general is that anything based off attack power scales far worse than anything based off spell power. This affects warriors, rogues, and clerics.

    So physical attacks receive higher mitigation paired with lower scaling...while magical attacks receive lower mitigation paired with higher scaling?
    Ap sucks, Valor sucks. Ap cant really be fixed that well cuz then shamans will own the dps meters because in a raid envirionment they have about 1800 compared to like 1k of rogues and warriors.

    At the end of the day rogues are currently in a terrible state and i've gone bard for the time being.

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    Champion Skyline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xzaar View Post
    There are resists, but you do not get much of it, or in the case of pvp gear, no elemental resist at all. As a result spell damage does not really undergo the default penalty physical dmg goes through. Right now most warriors are riftblade, which is probably the most competitive pvp spec atm. Rogues have a magic damage tree but it is terrible for damage and easily countered by classes with offensive purges.
    I'm sorry you feel that way and clearly do not know how to play a Nightblade.

    I've never been successfully kited by any Marksman I've ever come across.... even when they Eradicate all my ****, Dusk to Dawn, a few Twilight Forces and Flame Thrusts is more then plenty to blow up a Marksman.

    44 NB 22 RS ... the secrets out, now go play.


    It's always funny when a Marksman starts plinking me for 100 - 150 dmg per swift shot then a laughable 1k total RFS or HS.

    Then I pop Ebon Fury and see 3 - 4 Twilight Forces or Dusk Strike for 900-1100 dmg each. Followed by a 1500 non crit finisher... and 2.5k+ crit.

    More times than none they are dead before they realize they need to Eradicate.
    Last edited by Skyline; 08-17-2011 at 06:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyline View Post
    I'm sorry you feel that way and clearly do not know how to play a Nightblade.

    I've never been successfully kited by any Marksman I've ever come across.... even when they Eradicate all my ****, Dusk to Dawn, a few Twilight Forces and Flame Thrusts is more then plenty to blow up a Marksman.

    44 NB 22 RS ... the secrets out, now go play.


    It's always funny when a Marksman starts plinking me for 100 - 150 dmg per swift shot then a laughable 1k total RFS or HS.

    Then I pop Ebon Fury and see 3 - 4 Twilight Forces or Dusk Strike for 900-1100 dmg each. Followed by a 1500 non crit finisher... and 2.5k+ crit.

    More times than none they are dead before they realize they need to Eradicate.
    I find 22 in BD works better than RS.

    Plus it gives the the most epic macro evar... Sidesteps Twilight Shelter + Storm guard rep trinket.

    Essentially another 8 seconds of immunity... with a 40% dmg reduction of course.

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Pipra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muzzel View Post
    Ap sucks, Valor sucks. Ap cant really be fixed that well cuz then shamans will own the dps meters because in a raid envirionment they have about 1800 compared to like 1k of rogues and warriors.

    At the end of the day rogues are currently in a terrible state and i've gone bard for the time being.
    I don't PvE, so I can't comment about raid environments, but in the WFs I run, Rogues are great.

  13. #13
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    It's not really accurate to say that Riftblade is all magical, and marksman is all physical..

    Riftblade attacks are both physical and magical for the most part. The finishers are all magical.

    However, warrior physical specs have nothing like the armor ignore that MM/Inf does.

    MM/Inf gets:
    -20% armor in MM
    -10% armor in Inf
    -500ish from MM or ranger armor debuff attack.

    Plus you have master archer procs on 25% of your attacks which is purely magic damage.

    Paragons and champs get:
    -5% from paragon, costs 5 talent points..
    -500ish from champ debuff , does 0 damage when you apply it.

    There is also a point where more armor penetration/reduction does not help. I don't think it's much more than 30% but maybe someone who knows can post exactly what it is. MM is very close I'm sure, if not over the limit when they use a debuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet View Post
    Weíre generally happy with the current state of Warriors and are continuing to monitor a number of smaller issues involving them.
    R8 Rogue
    R8 Warrior

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    Ascendant Fujitasix's Avatar
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    I think this issue is more sword n board RBs doing as much damage as a 2H spec while being nearly as durable as a full on tank - to a physical damage class at least.

    They were easier to avoid when they weren't the FotM, but it's getting harder to pick your battles as a rogue.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatalflaw View Post
    It's not really accurate to say that Riftblade is all magical, and marksman is all physical..

    Riftblade attacks are both physical and magical for the most part. The finishers are all magical.

    However, warrior physical specs have nothing like the armor ignore that MM/Inf does.

    MM/Inf gets:
    -20% armor in MM
    -10% armor in Inf
    -500ish from MM or ranger armor debuff attack.

    Plus you have master archer procs on 25% of your attacks which is purely magic damage.

    Paragons and champs get:
    -5% from paragon, costs 5 talent points..
    -500ish from champ debuff , does 0 damage when you apply it.

    There is also a point where more armor penetration/reduction does not help. I don't think it's much more than 30% but maybe someone who knows can post exactly what it is. MM is very close I'm sure, if not over the limit when they use a debuff.
    Really? which riftblade attack does physical dmg?

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