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Thread: Tanks in PvE.

  1. #1
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    Default Tanks in PvE.

    I leveled a rogue to tank. I've geared him through T2s and Raid Rifts to basically have the best gear available to me for tanking. I haven't put a huge amount of effort into DPS gear, but I can hold my own.

    My guild is starting out raiding now and the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that there is never a reason for me to be MTing. And there's very good reasons for it. Spotter's Orders, personal DPS, agro, self-healing and Block.

    1. Spotter's Order. Stupid agro generation aside, this ability adds a VERY large amount of damage to the raid. Extra damage on every attack that hits the mob is a large amount of damage. The only way to get this ability is by having a warrior, and since the cookie-cutter DPS specs don't have it, you either have to have a warrior tanking, or you gimp a DPS by forcing them to have warlord.

    2. Personal DPS. Rogues have a 30% less damage modifier added onto their tank stance. I really can't see a reason for this, but its there anyway. Our warrior tends to do more damage than I do while tanking, sometimes up to 100-200 DPS more. We're both in roughly equivalent gear, both using Titanslayers. I have twice as many weapons, where's the extra damage!?

    3. Agro. I have to hit things in melee. I have a total of one ranged agro generator, and its my taunt (8 seconds and causes immunity). I can teleport to things, which does help sometimes, but alot of the time the mob has run out of range by the time the port goes off. In general I don't have issues picking up singles or if I know the adds are coming. Random things really tend to screw with me though, warriors using 'path of I'm pulling the whole room-icane' tend to do this. The only AoE I can rely on has an 8 second cooldown and is often not up when I suddenly need it. Contrast this with warriors who can hit 2-3x 1pt spotter's and then go AFK for any fight that is tank+spank.

    4. Self Healing. I've seen warriors putting out 300-400 heals a second on themselves. Thats not including the huge full heal they get either. I can't heal myself other than a trinket that will only proc when I hit things. This also helps them with threat.

    5. Block. Rogues don't get any. Clerics get block, but they get screwed on magical damage tanking. In roughly equivalent gear, I have about 35% of the armor value that my warrior friend does... that's AFTER my finishers are all up. Ontop of that I don't have block to reduce the damage again. I understand that Rift Guard was supposed to make up for not having block... but what makes up for the huge difference in armor values?

    Warriors seem to have it all. They get magical mitigation on par with rogues (the supposed magic tanks) they get physical mitigation on par or better than clerics, they are the only tanks who can bring raid buffs (our guild leader keeps several calls up) to a group... They get faceroll /afk agro and they can self-heal relatively well too.

    There doesn't seem to be any reason to use a rogue tank (except for kiting the wolf on Oracle) or a cleric tank (at all?). They seem to be the guys who CAN tank, but really shouldn't.

    Am I missing something here?

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Shendar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    I leveled a rogue to tank. I've geared him through T2s and Raid Rifts to basically have the best gear available to me for tanking. I haven't put a huge amount of effort into DPS gear, but I can hold my own.

    My guild is starting out raiding now and the more I look at it, the more convinced I am that there is never a reason for me to be MTing. And there's very good reasons for it. Spotter's Orders, personal DPS, agro, self-healing and Block.

    1. Spotter's Order. Stupid agro generation aside, this ability adds a VERY large amount of damage to the raid. Extra damage on every attack that hits the mob is a large amount of damage. The only way to get this ability is by having a warrior, and since the cookie-cutter DPS specs don't have it, you either have to have a warrior tanking, or you gimp a DPS by forcing them to have warlord.

    2. Personal DPS. Rogues have a 30% less damage modifier added onto their tank stance. I really can't see a reason for this, but its there anyway. Our warrior tends to do more damage than I do while tanking, sometimes up to 100-200 DPS more. We're both in roughly equivalent gear, both using Titanslayers. I have twice as many weapons, where's the extra damage!?

    3. Agro. I have to hit things in melee. I have a total of one ranged agro generator, and its my taunt (8 seconds and causes immunity). I can teleport to things, which does help sometimes, but alot of the time the mob has run out of range by the time the port goes off. In general I don't have issues picking up singles or if I know the adds are coming. Random things really tend to screw with me though, warriors using 'path of I'm pulling the whole room-icane' tend to do this. The only AoE I can rely on has an 8 second cooldown and is often not up when I suddenly need it. Contrast this with warriors who can hit 2-3x 1pt spotter's and then go AFK for any fight that is tank+spank.

    4. Self Healing. I've seen warriors putting out 300-400 heals a second on themselves. Thats not including the huge full heal they get either. I can't heal myself other than a trinket that will only proc when I hit things. This also helps them with threat.

    5. Block. Rogues don't get any. Clerics get block, but they get screwed on magical damage tanking. In roughly equivalent gear, I have about 35% of the armor value that my warrior friend does... that's AFTER my finishers are all up. Ontop of that I don't have block to reduce the damage again. I understand that Rift Guard was supposed to make up for not having block... but what makes up for the huge difference in armor values?

    Warriors seem to have it all. They get magical mitigation on par with rogues (the supposed magic tanks) they get physical mitigation on par or better than clerics, they are the only tanks who can bring raid buffs (our guild leader keeps several calls up) to a group... They get faceroll /afk agro and they can self-heal relatively well too.

    There doesn't seem to be any reason to use a rogue tank (except for kiting the wolf on Oracle) or a cleric tank (at all?). They seem to be the guys who CAN tank, but really shouldn't.

    Am I missing something here?
    I suggest you give up tanking completely and concentrate on facerolling your way up the DPS meter.
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    General of Telara livnthedream's Avatar
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    your missing quite a bit.

    1. spotters is far from optimal from your tank. with an optimal rotation they cant have 100% spotters uptime.

    2. personal dps os completely inconsequential. if you are failing encounters based on tank dps you need to look elsewhere for your problems.

    3. you are using an incorrect raid build if you have no ranged aggro generation, that being said for single target aggro if the warrior is beating you then you have many bigger issues.

    4. self healing is again, inconsequential. assuming they spec for it they have a 10min cd that allows them to full heal, we have a 3 sec immunity that clears all of our debuffs. last i checked different classes are different.

    5. rogues have a flat bubble that absorbs a a tremendous amount of damage. its also what makes us superior magic mitigation tanks. you really need to look at how the mitigation effects stack. having access to a decent rogue for progression is a must imo.

    for overall damage taken in an encounter rogues are better than warriors until roughly fill t3 where warriors are slightly ahead, assuming you are playing correctly. rogue tanks are no where near as gear reliant as warriors are, even if we dont quite scale aswell because of it, so far in hk there doesnt seem to be any real large issues by competent players. the only real gripe that i have is warrior aoe threat is insane compared to both rogues and clerics. all in all, rogues are in a decent spot at the moment.
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    Rift Disciple Nallly's Avatar
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    so....u wana be a warrior is wht i'm getting from reading this... cause it's clear in most fights rogue>warrior in terms of tanking
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  5. #5
    RIFT Community Ambassador Sodahelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nallly View Post
    so....u wana be a warrior is wht i'm getting from reading this... cause it's clear in most fights rogue>warrior in terms of tanking
    In nearly every encounter, there is a stronger argument for Warriors than there is for Rogues. This is less true on Oracle Aleria if your guild chooses to kite the ranged werewolf.

    Not meaning this in a troll way, just from a raid leader's perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    your missing quite a bit.
    I certainly hope so.

    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    1. spotters is far from optimal from your tank. with an optimal rotation they cant have 100% spotters uptime.
    Ciderhelm disagrees. Now I'm not an expert on warriors (only class I don't have at 50) but it seems to me that the 'optimal' rotation would include calls based solely on their threat generation.

    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    2. personal dps os completely inconsequential. if you are failing encounters based on tank dps you need to look elsewhere for your problems.
    It's another little thing. Lots of little things add up to big things. While I agree that 100 DPS is not a huge margin, it's still there, if anything, the guy with 2 swords should be doing more damage than the guy with a shield. Atleast in my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    3. you are using an incorrect raid build if you have no ranged aggro generation, that being said for single target aggro if the warrior is beating you then you have many bigger issues.
    1 point spotter's spam is easily enough to hold threat from me. I can grab it for 3 seconds with a taunt, but if it gets hit with a call on the way over, it'll go straight back after those 3 seconds. I have tried to pull things off my warrior friends. If they are spamming calls, I literally will not ever pull a mob off them without taunting.

    Quick Shot and/or Cadence are ranged, but don't generate any extra threat. Yes they are ranged, and yes they do generate some threat, but they are not what I consider ranged threat abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    4. self healing is again, inconsequential. assuming they spec for it they have a 10min cd that allows them to full heal, we have a 3 sec immunity that clears all of our debuffs. last i checked different classes are different.
    Trinkets/greaters that trigger heals on blocking. Class abilities which trigger heals on blocking (if spec'd). All of these are unavailable to rogues. Also, 51 VK gets a second full heal... which also negates the next 5 attacks.

    400 heals a second doesn't sound like much, until you have a 5 minute fight (5*60*400= 120,000 healing done). Again, small things (or in this case almost 10 times a warrior's total hitpoints) add up to big things.

    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    5. rogues have a flat bubble that absorbs a a tremendous amount of damage. its also what makes us superior magic mitigation tanks. you really need to look at how the mitigation effects stack. having access to a decent rogue for progression is a must imo.
    I am aware how our mitigation stacks. Superior magic mitigation tanks? I think you need to go check your numbers. 2% is the advantage we get over warriors. That doesn't sound all that superior to me. I would think that if it's the only advantage we get it would be a little bit bigger than an extra 20 damage off a 1000pt hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by livnthedream View Post
    for overall damage taken in an encounter rogues are better than warriors until roughly fill t3 where warriors are slightly ahead, assuming you are playing correctly. rogue tanks are no where near as gear reliant as warriors are, even if we dont quite scale aswell because of it, so far in hk there doesnt seem to be any real large issues by competent players. the only real gripe that i have is warrior aoe threat is insane compared to both rogues and clerics. all in all, rogues are in a decent spot at the moment.
    No real issues? Rogues getting hit 3 times harder isn't a 'real' issue for you?
    Last edited by Paikis; 07-31-2011 at 09:29 PM.

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    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    100 DPS isn't significant, but the 1-2k overall raid DPS that Spotter's adds sure is lol.

    Anyway I know our Warrior tanks sure take a lot less physical damage than I do, and if I didn't have so much resist they'd probably be competitive. On fights like Uruluuk where there's no real resistance advantage I only take ~200 less damage per attack. Also

    http://i53.tinypic.com/etwrr4.png

    good times. can't wait to get into HK!
    Last edited by Ianto Jones; 07-31-2011 at 09:36 PM.

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    i personally love my level 34 reaver/paladin/vk in battlegrounds. i have no problem topping the charts every time for damage taken.

    i get mid chart damage done and kills but i feel that my soaking up aoe and single target damage makes up for this. also i have an aoe slow, aoe dots, and a aoe dot that roots which i'm sure help.

    plus i have easily the most hp in every game i enter, even though im 34 i have more hp than 39's, so this plus my lower spell damage taken, and tons of block dodge and parry make me the perfect choice to hold the fang in he black garden.

  9. #9
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    see my thread: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...g-classes.html
    36 pages and counting

    don't try to make a well reasoned argument, people will just yell out "LOL U QQING?" or "OMG HOMOGENIZATION" and carry on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sodahelm View Post
    In nearly every encounter, there is a stronger argument for Warriors than there is for Rogues. This is less true on Oracle Aleria if your guild chooses to kite the ranged werewolf.

    Not meaning this in a troll way, just from a raid leader's perspective.
    We actually didnt have a rogue tank tonight cuz they are all to ***** to step up and do it. So we had our warrior mt range it lol

    was funny really
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    2. Personal DPS. Rogues have a 30% less damage modifier added onto their tank stance. I really can't see a reason for this, but its there anyway. Our warrior tends to do more damage than I do while tanking, sometimes up to 100-200 DPS more. We're both in roughly equivalent gear, both using Titanslayers. I have twice as many weapons, where's the extra damage!?

    As to this, you seem to be missing the fact that the tank stance gives +100% to agro generation, and add in the extra 40% a talented guarded steel gives. Warriors get 20% with 7 in paladin, and can have 15% more on reaver dot's. No idea how much extra the warlord's battle field awareness gives to calls.
    While clerics get +300% to agro generation, and -40% to any ability outside their tanking tree and they also lack any high threat abilities.

    So you are giving up a little bit of damage for higher threat generation, now if the exchange is balanced compared to the other tanks that is another question all together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawklaser View Post
    As to this, you seem to be missing the fact that the tank stance gives +100% to agro generation, and add in the extra 40% a talented guarded steel gives. Warriors get 20% with 7 in paladin, and can have 15% more on reaver dot's. No idea how much extra the warlord's battle field awareness gives to calls.
    While clerics get +300% to agro generation, and -40% to any ability outside their tanking tree and they also lack any high threat abilities.

    So you are giving up a little bit of damage for higher threat generation, now if the exchange is balanced compared to the other tanks that is another question all together.
    Except that warriors have the easiest agro generation in the game. Invalid arguement is invalid.

  13. #13
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    Its not invalid just because warriors have crazy easy threat generation right now, as that can easily be changed by future patches. And that either means a nerf to warrior threat generation, or a buff to the other tanks.

    Warriors have their extra threat tagged onto certain abilities, compared to rogues having the ability to apply a flat across the board increase to all of their abilities at the cost of some damage, including their abilities already tagged as high-threat.

    With the way things currently are, the trade offs rogues and clerics make for their treat generation may be a bit steep when compared directly to warriors, but if compare it to what the expected threat per second is warriors could be blowing that out of the water. If this is the case, it is highly likely warrior threat generation is going to be nerfed.

  14. #14
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawklaser View Post
    As to this, you seem to be missing the fact that the tank stance gives +100% to agro generation, and add in the extra 40% a talented guarded steel gives. Warriors get 20% with 7 in paladin, and can have 15% more on reaver dot's. No idea how much extra the warlord's battle field awareness gives to calls.
    While clerics get +300% to agro generation, and -40% to any ability outside their tanking tree and they also lack any high threat abilities.

    So you are giving up a little bit of damage for higher threat generation, now if the exchange is balanced compared to the other tanks that is another question all together.
    hey buddy. warriors get threat equal to 5x their damage on their tanking abilities. plus they do more damage than cleric abilities. compare: ragestorm/sweeping strikes/retaliation to anything clerics get.

    warriors don't get to complain about threat, lol
    Last edited by Bobopedic; 08-03-2011 at 07:10 AM.
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    1. Stop using bard as your 3rd soul. Learn to play on a basic level, please.

    2. All those cooldowns you have? Cycle them. Learn to play on a basic level, please. Yes your HP bar bounces more but it is nearly impossible for you manage to die with cooldown use.

    Currently, abilities that generate high threat have a 5:1 damage to threat ratio. Clerics have a 4:1 damage to threat ratio (in-tree abilities only), changed now to 5.5:1 due to their abilities doing hilariously garbage damage.

    Spotters orders/calls is where it gets hilariously silly.
    It generates AoE threat equal to your endurance, with a 500% bonus from the 6 point warlord buff. 6x endurance AoE threat. Generally around 3.5k. This can be done every other GCD.
    Last edited by Valanceer; 08-03-2011 at 09:17 AM.

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