+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 27 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 393

Thread: Something needs to be done about the disparity between tanking classes.

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    380

    Default Something needs to be done about the disparity between tanking classes.

    First, let me preface this in saying that I have extensively played both a cleric tank and a warrior tank. I am quite confident that I have much knowledge of how both tanks work, and that is why I am writing this post. I admit that I have not played a rogue tank since beta, but I have a pretty good idea as to how they are played. That said, most of this post will be about warriors and clerics, but rogues feel free to chip in.

    There are 3 things that define the tanking classes in rift: Mitigation, Threat, and Raid Buffs/Debuffs/Perks.
    Right now, the balance between 3 spread across the 3 tanks is completely unequal. Maybe this should be the case, but not when ALL THREE FAVOR ONE CLASS
    As of now and in the upcoming 1.4, there is a large disparity between tanking classes: The warrior, the riftstalker, and the justicar. There is no reason to use anything other than a warrior. In fact, you are handicapping your raid if you are not using a warrior tank.

    Mitigation:

    Physical Mitigation:

    I think physical damage mitigation is at a good place. Pre-hotfix, warriors could easily hit 90%+ block and that was a little overkill. But now with the softcap, I think all classes will be at a pretty good place (with riftstalkers and justicars a little behind warriors). I have no data for this, because it a recent change, but Iíll go out on a limb and say itíll keep warriors from scaling unreasonably with HK gear.

    Magic Mitigation:

    Warriors can get about 50% passive mitigation from the reaver hybrid build, or go into deep VK and have less passive mitigation but several cooldowns (Singularity, Fusion of Flesh) to mitigate burst (Greenscaleís breath, for example). Rogues are in the same boat, having high passive magic mitigation in addition to a few cooldowns (Planar Refuge, StS) to migitate all sources. Again, justicars are behind in this. The recent patch of an additional 10% magic mitigation certainly helped, but weíre still taking 50% more magic damage than rogues and warriors (thanks Radak for numbers). Of course, it is possible for justicars to tank Greenscale and Herald, but it requires otherwise unneeded help through purifier shields, a source machine made especially for those encounters, and a guild that doesnít mind boosting your ego.

    Suggestions: Buff clericís magic mitigation further, itís that simple. As for physical mitigation, weíll have to see what the soft cap and HK gear does to all three classes before addressing any major concerns.


    Threat

    Threat for warriors is a complete joke. I donít even have to try on my warrior. The difference between tanking as a cleric/rogue and a warrior is astonishing. With simply 6 points into warlord (which is in practically every build), every time a warrior uses a Call they deal 6*Endurance as threat to up to 10 nearby enemies (thanks Ciderhelm for that number). In T2 gear, my warrior has well over 600 endurance. Thatís over 3600 aoe threat per Call. This formula doesnít take into account attack points either--I could spam a 1-point finisher a couple times in the beginning of a fight and mobs will never let go. Now, I understand that Spotterís Orders and other Calls should provide some threat (theyíre finishers that take a gcd after all), but right now itís just ridiculous. I donít have to get the 20% threat talent from paladin, itís overkill. People are complaining about the synergy crystals that increase damage on high threat abilities because they donít need the bonus. And as a warrior? I donít like Battlefield Awareness. It makes tanking too easy, makes every tanking build without 6 in warlord extremely weak in comparison, and makes every other ability in your rotation nigh irrelevant (20% extra threat talent? Meh.) I didnít even mention intercept yet, which I donít even use anymore (except on healers during pulls to smooth things out)

    On the other hand, we have justicars. Despite being of similar gear to our rogues (Raid T1), their dps is starting to outscale my tps. Depending on the build, Justicars have two abilities they can toss into rotations that can make a huge deal in threat. DoA is great threat on fights where nearby raid/party members are taking periodic damage, but otherwise itís not enough. Jolt, which is universal in all non-51 justicar specs, is a substantial bonus in threat but requires quite a bit of crit to keep it on cooldown. One major problem is that warriors have a 5x bonus to their damaging attacks, while justicars have a 4x bonus. Even completely ignoring battlefield awareness, I do not do generate more on my justicar than I do on my warrior. Off-GCD retaliation is far more reliable and easier to obtain that Jolt, and short-CD AP builders like Sweeping Strikes and Ragestorm deal a bit more damage than Sovereignty and PoR. Reperation and Salvation is not enough to close the gap in threat generation, especially in fights where the group isnít taking any damage. I'm hoping that the new changes to Cabalist allow me to toss in some heavy-hitting Obliterates into my rotation, but we'll have to see!

    I honestly cannot comment too much about rogues here. Our guildís MT is a rogue and doesnít seem to have too many issues with threat, granted we usually have a rogue with incriminate. I would say that they need a little help with threat, but I wouldnít be the person to ask. We've have cases where 1900+ dps rogues and warriors have pulled off of him on Plutonus, but to be honest that seems pretty reasonable.

    Suggestions: Buff Justicarís MoL threat bonus to 5x or/and allow MoL to provide some threat on overhealing. Remove Warriorsí reliability on Battlefield Awareness somehow. Scale all three tanksí abilities/threat generation to keep up with similarly geared DPSers. Come HK, I predict cleric tanks will be having more issues. No idea about rogues here- someone can help me out.

    Raid buffs/debuffs/perks

    Warriors: Warriors provide Spotterís orders. This ability can single handedly increase the DPS of certain souls by 100 or more. Next patch will not be changing that in the slightest. A warrior using a deep warlord build provides a -5% armor debuff, a raid-wide ďLast StandĒ, and raid-wide healing buff. A warrior needs to make some mitigation sacrifices to get these deep warlord abilities, but in most cases itís well worth it.
    SO alone makes it a no-brainer to use a warrior tank on a fight like Plutonus, or Duke, or Infiltrator, or atleast 1 warrior tank on Greenscale, Oracle, Warmaster, etc. The armor debuff on dps races is a huge advantage. On fights like Hylas where the boss doesnít hit too hard but the raid takes massive damage, Aid Command and Rallying Command become invaluable.

    Rogues: I really canít think of anything. Besides superior mitigation, rogues only have the niche ability to teleport, which may have a place in a Hammerknell boss fight. Otherwise, they provide no perks, buffs, or debuffs for the raid when tanking.

    Justicars: Justicars can provide offheals when tanking. Unfortunately DoA only hits 5 people and is on a fifteen second cooldown, so its usefulness in a raid setting makes it not much more than a threat tool. DoL is extremely weak in Mien of Leadership with the 600ish spell power a justicar has in tanking gear. If my choice was between a) A warrior tank and inquisicar DPS and b) A justicar tank and warrior DPS, I would always go with choice a in a raid setting. Spotterís from the warrior tank more than makes up for the DPS loss going from warrior->inquisicar, and Inquisicars can easily put out more HPS.

    Solution: I really donít know. Removing Spotterís would piss off a lot of people, and giving a similar ability to riftstalkers and justicars would likely do the same. Something needs to be done to make them not the same, but comparable.

    Summary
    - With the combination of warriorís superior threat generation, superior raid debuffs and buffs, and mitigation, there is absolutely no reason to use a rogue or cleric over a warrior tank in a raid setting.
    Despite the opinion of many people that warriors should be the superior in every single aspect of tanking, this should not be the case. Clerics and rogues have tanking souls for a reason. They have tanking sets for a reason. Tanking items drop in raids for a reason.

    - Generating threat as a warrior is way too simple via Battlefield Awareness, while rogues and clerics will be slipping behind in that department come HK-geared dps. Warriors need to lose their reliability on Battlefield Awareness.

    - Make warriors fun and challenging again, bring justicarís magic mitigation up to par, provide incentives to use rogues/clerics in similar situations as warriors, and streamline threat generation.
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    380

    Default

    grats bro, you can use the search function and paste useless threads by people who don't know the difference between tanks
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  3. #3
    Rift Master GriffonHawke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    695

    Default

    Um hi Trion.

    My class can do all roles in the game, and no other class can do that. But yea, im all sad because like, im not the best at all four roles. Buff me please.

  4. #4
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GriffonHawke View Post
    Um hi Trion.

    My class can do all roles in the game, and no other class can do that. But yea, im all sad because like, im not the best at all four roles. Buff me please.
    Did you even read my post? I play both classes. I don't want justicars or riftstalkers to be the best. They should be comparable to a warrior, and right now, in all aspects, they are not.
    Last edited by Bobopedic; 07-21-2011 at 12:04 PM.
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  5. #5
    Rift Master GriffonHawke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    695

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobopedic View Post
    Did you even read my post? I play both classes. I don't want justicars or riftstalkers to be the best. They should be comparable to a warrior, and right now, in all aspects, they are not.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_of...master_of_none

  6. #6
    Plane Walker Kryptyx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    471

    Default

    As a Rogue tank who has tanked pretty much everything in this game (9/9) I can say that I agree with what the OP is saying.

    Warrior AoE threat is just straight broken in its current form. We typically will grab 2-3 trash pulls at once and once everything is grouped up everything just targets the warrior and never leaves, even if I single target taunt and pull mobs off they sometimes still go back to the warrior. I'm sure someone is thinking that maybe I'm just bad and can't hold aggro but I never loose threat once to anyone else. Even fights like Pluto with people breaking 2k DPS (no Cipher) however throw a warrior tank in the mix and its stuck to them.

    As far as mitigation goes, I'd say with the upcoming block changes it should put Warriors and Rogues in line with one another, Clerics will need help.

    Off topic but the main thing I would want on my RS is a single target yank ability. It's useful for so many situations and our aoe one is pretty short ranged.
    Kryptyx - Guildless ;( - Raidcruit me!
    Riftstalker BIS Spreadsheet

  7. #7
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GriffonHawke View Post
    exactly.

    Clerics can perform every role right now and do it well, There is no reason why they should be exactly as "good" as other tanks. Which is superfluous anyway because you admitted they *CAN* tank, it's just "not as easy as a warrior".

  8. #8
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryptyx View Post
    As a Rogue tank who has tanked pretty much everything in this game (9/9) I can say that I agree with what the OP is saying.

    Warrior AoE threat is just straight broken in its current form. We typically will grab 2-3 trash pulls at once and once everything is grouped up everything just targets the warrior and never leaves, even if I single target taunt and pull mobs off they sometimes still go back to the warrior. I'm sure someone is thinking that maybe I'm just bad and can't hold aggro but I never loose threat once to anyone else. Even fights like Pluto with people breaking 2k DPS (no Cipher) however throw a warrior tank in the mix and its stuck to them.

    As far as mitigation goes, I'd say with the upcoming block changes it should put Warriors and Rogues in line with one another, Clerics will need help.

    Off topic but the main thing I would want on my RS is a single target yank ability. It's useful for so many situations and our aoe one is pretty short ranged.
    if other tanks in your raid are stealing threat from you, that's not a broken mechanic, that's the other tank being a tool. adjust your strats accordingly.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jankum View Post
    exactly.

    Clerics can perform every role right now and do it well, There is no reason why they should be exactly as "good" as other tanks. Which is superfluous anyway because you admitted they *CAN* tank, it's just "not as easy as a warrior".
    Okay, and warriors and rogues shouldn't match the DPS of mages because they can tank well? I don't mind having a challenge when tanking as a justicar. My whole complaint is that when playing a warrior, it's not even slightly difficult. I have no fun doing it, there's no strategy involved. On top of the ease of threat generation, they have everything else going for them as well.

    Tell me, do you want rogues, warriors, and mages do all do comparable DPS? Me too. And I want the same for tanks.
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jankum View Post
    if other tanks in your raid are stealing threat from you, that's not a broken mechanic, that's the other tank being a tool. adjust your strats accordingly.
    The other tank using Spotter's orders to bring down a mob faster makes him a tool? It's a broken mechanic, not anyone's fault.
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  11. #11
    Rift Master GriffonHawke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    695

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobopedic View Post
    rogues, warriors, and mages do all do comparable DPS
    I know some mages that would like to have a chat with you.

  12. #12
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobopedic View Post
    The other tank using Spotter's orders to bring down a mob faster makes him a tool? It's a broken mechanic, not anyone's fault.
    You don't need to have battlefield awareness up to use spotter's order. He's a tool.

  13. #13
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GriffonHawke View Post
    I know some mages that would like to have a chat with you.
    DId you even read the f---ing sentence you quoted? Let me help you, it says "Do you want rogues, warriors, and mages to do the same damage?" I'm well aware that this is not the case, hence I asked the question. And it's the same situation for tanking. Whoa! Analogies!
    Last edited by Bobopedic; 07-21-2011 at 12:29 PM.
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  14. #14
    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jankum View Post
    You don't need to have battlefield awareness up to use spotter's order. He's a tool.
    This is a good point, but then you realize how silly it is that you're generating so much threat around you that you will mobs off other tanks without even trying.
    Hiphop - Cleric
    Nasa - Warrior
    of <Dominance>, Faemist

  15. #15
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    95

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobopedic View Post
    This is a good point, but then you realize how silly it is that you're generating so much threat around you that you will mobs off other tanks without even trying.
    It's not silly at all because Battlefield Awareness + Spotter's Order is designed to generate high aoe threat. That's what it's doing. If you don't want to generate high aoe threat, don't use spotter's order with battlefield awareness. it's really that simple.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 27 1 2 3 4 5 11 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts