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Thread: PvP and PvE from a Mage omg

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    Telaran Eclipsed's Avatar
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    Default PvP and PvE from a Mage omg

    Warning: Wall of Text with Grammatical and potentially many spelling errors

    PvP wise I am biased to say that mages are fine, but thatís not the case. The nerfs to dominator in 1.4 reflect that the dominator soul needs tuning versus players. So dominator will probably get closeted again once 1.4 hits, but who knows because things are subject to change. In addition, Trion is nerfing healing across the boards, and chloromancer will find that its combat heals are not so useful.

    None fully geared mages need to just work on their survivability for pvp. That means getting as much endurance on your gear as possible and valor when you can. Then there is the build, I mainly pvp'd as a chloro/warlock till prestige rank 4 (this was before patch 1.2 I think). I was only able to focus on killing players effectively once I acquired more valor. At the moment for mages, it is about setting up for the burst. Constant streams of damage are usually countered with subpar healing, hence the nerf to healing in warfronts until 1.4.

    I am not sure what survivability builds work, but my guildie mage runs something like this for warfronts
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1z...o.V.Mciuwko0bz

    I think is fully pvp geared in only rank 1 and 2 gear. Detaunt is great for the 1v1's to buy yourself time for spells to get off of cool down or if your opponent goes into immune form (looks at rogues). At the moment dominator and chloro are OP to the average pvp'r and war/rog. The build isn't amazing damage, but is decent. Other threads have covered this, but your main damage/burst is from split personality. Split Personality is purgable. Which means you have to know your enemies as a mage, and set it up to be effective.

    For dueling purposes, don't use Split Personality and learn to use the spec without it. I forget I have it a lot of the time personally because it is an unreliable crutch. In addition, it helps for learning the spec to dual without using it-if you havenít played dominator extensively.

    For pvp, I am fine with the nerfs in 1.4. It just means mages need to ride the "OP" train till they get better gear. Seriously, have fun with a build while it lasts-maybe you can still run it in the future-but play with it while you can.

    Gear is huge in pvp. I am flabbergasted at the threads that cry about being killed by war/rog's, but then I realize that you guys probably aren't running full prestige rank 5/6 gear with good runes. I usually just sit in stuns to give 1v1's a chance when I am in the above spec with the exception of 5 points into Planar Attunement for Archmage.

    [Quick rundown of my character: Full rank 5/6 gear with best runes I believe from runecrafting recipes/t2 dungeons, I run the unseen sourcecore with all 3 valor essences- so basically I sit at 6.6k hit points self buffed and at 41% damage mitigation when I wear the unseen trinket. Max mitigation is 42% I think because I only lack the Eldrich Vanguard head rune- I use the Icewatch favor rune instead.]

    The above information is just to compare for other mages on why I sit in stuns, and save my Break Free. Warfronts are unfortunately group based, so I like to save break free for when there are group on group encounters. If you are lesser geared and may die from a 1v1 encounter than using the Break Free is necessary.

    Another point I have is that mages need to use the right sourcecores. Each and every point from your sourcecore counts. My core for the above build has the three pvp essences, and a crystal essences with the best spell power/spell crit/endurance combination- Natural Intellect I think. I use healing greaters because of how chloro functions- so I use the shield greater ess and the healing essence from the Stillmoore and Iron Pine Peaks rare planar merchants. The core is set up to heal the group a little, and give me some more hit points. The build doesnt have great damage in my opinion, but your overall damage is high because of high survivability. Just don't try to compare yourself to purely damage builds because you should be left in the dust. (I bought a crystal essences because I am saving inscribed for HK sourcecore.)

    If your a purely damage build, please don't have either type of essence in your core. Work on a spell power and/or spell crit source. I dislike seeing mages run healing greater essences when they aren't doing any healing-its a waste of a slot, and your being less effective.

    IMO mages are pretty godly in pvp if you have the gear. Mages should win 1v1 against the other classes of equal gear. PvP IMO is about burst and survivability- don't be a squishy mage.

    Until 1.4 comes out just destroy other players.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    For PvE we are not godly or even competitive IMO.
    For Plutonus in ROS I think the numbers I keep reading are around 1700 dps for mages, 1900-2000 for warriors, and 2000-2100 for rogues. I am unsure of cleric figures, but I believe we are under them as well for dps.

    I understand that Plutonus is just one fight, but there such a large gap in damage being done. I would like to stay competitive in dps, but there are some things that i cannot do to bridge that gap.
    1. Macros- a lot of spells don't have cool downs - so they cannot be macroed together.
    - macros reduce human error- timing, and cast/attack order-so without similar macros, mages have a great loss of damage from human error
    2. Slow casts-a lot of our big spells like fireball, Arctic Blast, and lightning bolt take around 2 seconds to cast
    - wars/rogs rely on power/energy to perform their attacks, but their attacks are instant and rely only on what energy they have available- the bard song fervor or chloromancer energy reduction ( I just call it clover by the picture and never call it by name, so I don't know it by name.) help with their energy/power drain
    - mages get percentage cast time reductions, but the strongest spells are still take a while to cast (Iíll get to why long casts are a problem in a bit) - archon buffs do help give mages a slight edge in buff terms, but it comes in the form of Surging Flare, which is only a 5% increase to casting speed for 6 seconds, and has a cool down of 10 seconds and a 2 second cast. So about half the time casters get to cast 5% faster. Which is useless to mage dot builds because they are instants, and a 2 second cast time becomes 1.9. Now on paper that is huge, your 5k crits on a 2 second cast is goes from 2,500 dps to 2,631 dps. But mages are not constantly casting 100% critical spells, and are not constantly casting 2 second cast bombs. So 5% decrease to casting speeds of spells over the 1.5 second cast times isn't huge.
    -slow cast times kill damage- for example stormcaller needs to set up electrify stacks and Building Storm stacks to do the Arctic Blast auto crit for a small boost in overall dps, but if we have to move and we are doing close to last second Arctic Blasts on the timered stacks- we may lose out our chance to use an effective Arctic Blast because the stacks wore off-you can say sure think ahead, but reapplying electrify isn't the fastest thing - Raging Storm/Electrocute/Lightning Storm are the only instant casts I believe for quick refresh of electrify stacks, but all involve standing in place for at least a second I think before the stacks get refreshed- and electrocute means that your within the hit box of the boss or target to use it

    I may have some incorrect information; if so feel free to correct me.
    Mages have a lot to keep up with, and are affected by human faults more than other classes.

    To all the classes that don't care for mages to be competitive:
    -PvE is different from PvP, Trion is working on separate coefficients, so we won't roflstomp you as hard if Trion improves us in PvE-or so I have heard for the future updates-or hope that Trion does

    Anyways, if someone has a pure instant cast build (basically can cast the entire rotation while moving), and does competitive dps please do tell.

    PvP is great for mages!! (That have the gear, experience, and builds.)
    PvE isn't so much unless you enjoy being support for raiding. I like to be hurp durp and just dps sometimes.

    If anythingfrom this thread , I hope newbie pvp mages will take advantage of either Dominator and/or Chloro until 1.4 comes out. I don't think stuns from so and so are game breaking, you just need the gear and CC>Heal>DPS.

    A mage whom doesn't mind the changes in PvP, but does not find the changes to PvE as effective in what they are meant for. I know this post doesn't cover the spectrum of examples for my cases or against, but those are just ideas on why mages aren't as competitive as they need to be in raids.

    Hopefully people will not continue to mix PvP and PvE in an argument if Trion is actively working on seperate coefficients for PvP and PvE for all classes.

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    Rift Chaser Carondimonio's Avatar
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    Incoming dom and cholo nerfs.
    Last edited by Carondimonio; 07-17-2011 at 09:29 AM.

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    Yes, in pvp mage does have some OP specs for 1 on 1. They also have a couple great specs for when the other team lacks any healing and they have a great healing spec.

    However, for DD in a teambased environment mages are way behind. Anybody with a brain should realize this. We do not have a burst class anymore. We don't have anything near the burst of a war or rogue anymore. Make the spec need 51 so we don't have any dmg mit idc. But burst classes are great. A burst class is killed super fast if the other team is decent but if the burst class player is great with positioning and making sure they are never the focus of the other team then a burst class can turn the tide.

    Mage deserves a glass cannon for it is what many of us play it for.

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    Telaran Eclipsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carondimonio View Post
    Incoming dom and cholo nerfs.
    I am fine with that, I still pvp with pyro/ele currently with and without competent healers. I do well because I know I have the spell power/cpell crit to get kills and fuel Bloodthirst guild perk.

    I know the build has way worse survivability than chloro/dom, but chloro/dom will never have the burst of pyro/ele.

    When 1.4 hits, there will be a new flavor- the build I posted is a build I made in a few minutes to counter immune rogues I dueled with. I truly didnt expect it to be amazing, and kept it because of my lone wolf nature. It can handle the stealth/immune rogues that my pyro/ele cannot.

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    dueling ruins mmo's imo. Sure mage does have a couple specs that should never lose to another class 1 on 1. Does this matter in a teambased environment with healing? NO. However a lot of ppl that love dueling think that it does matter and use these same specs in a teambased environment with healing to do minimal kbs but high dmg on the chart. The only dueling spec that is good for both dueling and wf's is the healing version but i don't see many in that.

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    Telaran Eclipsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raika25 View Post
    Yes, in pvp mage does have some OP specs for 1 on 1. They also have a couple great specs for when the other team lacks any healing and they have a great healing spec.

    However, for DD in a teambased environment mages are way behind. Anybody with a brain should realize this. We do not have a burst class anymore. We don't have anything near the burst of a war or rogue anymore. Make the spec need 51 so we don't have any dmg mit idc. But burst classes are great. A burst class is killed super fast if the other team is decent but if the burst class player is great with positioning and making sure they are never the focus of the other team then a burst class can turn the tide.

    Mage deserves a glass cannon for it is what many of us play it for.
    I think we are the burst class, other classes are just constantly high damage. Which is kinda stupid but how it is. With my gear I smell no valor when I see 2.4k fireball crits, and I think only 1.4k or so when they have the spec or gear. Heat wave and intensify elements is 15 seconds of burst, and afterwards we are back to normal.

    Before 1.3, a pyro could 1 shot many players with Countdown, flamebolt, and inferno. You could literally 5k+ damage in one second because of a timed Flamebbolt when Countdown went off, and if they were under 30% hp you could cast Inferno off gcd.

    You can still do Countdown with whatever other spell and do alot of damage at once, or if your lucky- Countodwn, slowcast Fireball, and Cinder burst at the ready off of either, its not the same, but there are alot of different combos that can occur.

    I haven't tried Stormcaller/Dom yet, but I will stick to Pyro/Ele for single target dps in PvP. Having Flicker and Break free is nice.

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    Telaran Eclipsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raika25 View Post
    dueling ruins mmo's imo. Sure mage does have a couple specs that should never lose to another class 1 on 1. Does this matter in a teambased environment with healing? NO. However a lot of ppl that love dueling think that it does matter and use these same specs in a teambased environment with healing to do minimal kbs but high dmg on the chart. The only dueling spec that is good for both dueling and wf's is the healing version but i don't see many in that.
    Dueling is not a great example, but this spec is solid for group v group- you have split personality, transmogify, wild growth, flourish, bloom, and essence surge. I only use life based attacks for the most part as well. So this build does healing, CC, and burst if Split Personality is off cool down. Dueling is good for learning your opponents, and learnign your own build/class.

    Dualing also works on your survivability. In addition, I find Defiant healers unreliable, and so I do build for self-survivability. Against the average player this build is amazing. Against good/great players- you can atleast CC others, but again you are reliant on the pugs.

    I only post this build so you can rely on yourself. Pugs are unpredictable, so you can only change how you play and interact with them.

    Also, I rarely dueled before I had to transfer servers, the que times on my new server pool are horrible. So I had to do something inbetween, and what I mainly found were rogues that enjoyed their immune to damage versus my pryo/ele spec. So I made the spec to mainly annoy them- chloro/locl was ok, but I had no real way to slow down the damage-so I just made the spec to annoy, and I am surprised at the results in warfronts.
    Last edited by Eclipsed; 07-17-2011 at 10:18 AM.

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    Plane Touched runicNomad's Avatar
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    in PVE environment Mages are at the bottom. Because we are unable to macro like it has been said and because rogues and warriors totally outdps us.

    this is the first game I have played where mages who wear cloth have no defense and rely totally on upfront damage are the lowest dps in the world. hopefully this will be adjusted. I do not understand it currently.

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    Rift Chaser extinction's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runicNomad View Post
    in PVE environment Mages are at the bottom. Because we are unable to macro like it has been said and because rogues and warriors totally outdps us.

    this is the first game I have played where mages who wear cloth have no defense and rely totally on upfront damage are the lowest dps in the world. hopefully this will be adjusted. I do not understand it currently.
    ^this

    OP tho however, i do somewhat agree chloro/lock or chloro/dom is fine except for split personality burst, but the change to transference i see is not okay, considering it is pretty much the only way to stop a warrior from killing u in 4 secs in p6 gear... transference has a 30 sec cooldown i do not see it as needing a nerf considering its one of the few OH **** buttons in a mages arsenal.

    and mages are not fine in pve and im pretty pissed about that

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    Rift Chaser Carondimonio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by extinction View Post
    ^this

    OP tho however, i do somewhat agree chloro/lock or chloro/dom is fine except for split personality burst, but the change to transference i see is not okay, considering it is pretty much the only way to stop a warrior from killing u in 4 secs in p6 gear... transference has a 30 sec cooldown i do not see it as needing a nerf considering its one of the few OH **** buttons in a mages arsenal.

    and mages are not fine in pve and im pretty pissed about that

    Rift balancing lesson number 88:
    when someone qq about a mage ability in the official forum, that ability will be nerfed next patch. So no one can scream BRIGHTWIZARDS OMG!!!1!one!two.
    Last edited by Carondimonio; 07-18-2011 at 01:58 PM.

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    Rift Chaser Ferago's Avatar
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    Seems like there's a lot of focus on warriors. If a P6 warrior is cutting you down in under 6 seconds, I don't think you're having any better luck surviving stealth/stun/bleed attacks or MM burst dps.

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    Rift Chaser Carondimonio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferago View Post
    Seems like there's a lot of focus on warriors. If a P6 warrior is cutting you down in under 6 seconds, I don't think you're having any better luck surviving stealth/stun/bleed attacks or MM burst dps.
    This is also true, but at least rogues have less survavibility generally speaking.

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    Prophet of Telara Artorous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runicNomad View Post
    in PVE environment Mages are at the bottom. Because we are unable to macro like it has been said and because rogues and warriors totally outdps us.

    this is the first game I have played where mages who wear cloth have no defense and rely totally on upfront damage are the lowest dps in the world. hopefully this will be adjusted. I do not understand it currently.
    Ok, my main is a Mage and I agree we could use a boost, not going to prevent us from being brought to raids but we could use it never the less.

    However stop saying that because we wear cloth in PvE that means we should have the highest damage. In a raid setting it doesn't matter what armor type you are wearing, if you're not a tank you get one shot by the boss. The boss doesn't care if you're in cloth, leather, chain, or plate as he has decided he is going to kill you unless your specced to deal with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carondimonio View Post
    Rift balancing lesson number 88:
    when someone qq about a mage ability in the official forum, that ability will be nerfed next patch. So no one can scream BRIGHTWIZARDS OMG!!!1!one!two.
    I dont know why somebody should mistake our magus with brightwarriors...
    Once known as Nix-Zero


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    Quote Originally Posted by Carondimonio View Post
    This is also true, but at least rogues have less survavibility generally speaking.
    rogues have the "get home free without going to prison and taking the 20$ at the start" card, slip away, or all the crazy kiting/escaping tools that mm gets or a ton of survavibility into the riftstalker and bladedancer tree.
    how do they lack survivability?
    Once known as Nix-Zero


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