+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 62

Thread: Is the combat system/class deisng tosimple/easy for rift to be taken seriously?

  1. #1
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    53

    Default Is the combat system/class deisng tosimple/easy for rift to be taken seriously?

    good morning all. As I've been playing rift and leveling my main I've begun to look at endgame threads for a proper spec and rotation. While doing this I keep coming across threads that had to rotation down to a 2-3 button macro. This bothered me enough i decided to start the following thread that got out of hand mainly due to me questioning the wrong apsect of the game. http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...acro-rotations

    Needless to say after 14 pages of people going off at each other over stupid things I've been able to pinpoint what's really wrong with this game. While i do still feel macros need to have their usefulness broken by about 70% this isn't the thread to get into that.


    During the above thread I learned that while the macro rotations are part of the problem i see with this game, they're not the cause of the problem. The cause is the current combat system that allows my warrior to not need a real rotation just my 3 macros with no real punishment for doing it the easy way IE lower DPS. And the class design that allows my warrior to never have to worry about being in the middle of a rotation or missing a move and, having to start all over again because if that ever happens which it can't i'd just need to apply another combo point, use a finisher, or a reactive ability.


    Because of this i have to ask the following. does the current system hurt trion and rifts chances at becoming a super MMO? As a gamer i want to work for my stuff and be rewarded at an equal level for the work i put in, but the current system allows minimal effort because it's not restrictive in anyway and maximum reward. i hate comparing this game to other but the biggest thing i loved about my WoW lock was the priority system rotation. If i didn't play well i did crap dps and didn't get any rewards. so again as a gamer when i look at this game i don't see a rewarding challenge, i see a cakewalk ok i get cool stuff now.

    Does anyone else think that the current combat/class design needs to change for rift to have any real chance at becoming a super MMO? While i love this game and wish more people would play I see this as a big issue and can't think of anyone who would want to play this combat system over say WoWs.

    Sorry if it's a little rambly/incoherent I've been up for 18 hours

    oh ya could a mod please lock the linked thread lock not delete plox
    Last edited by Vesane; 07-03-2011 at 08:36 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Fujitasix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    3,416

    Default

    Macro thread #747 this month, but I'll bite.

    Players would go from a couple of keys to 10 or more and reactive abilities, and that would be too taxing for the average player. I hear mages still need loads of hotkeys if you enjoy that.

    I play Sab for PvE and can't really macro anything other than my trinket, so it wouldn't affect me any if they were to neuter them. Most of my useful macros are for focus swaps and targeting - and I think those should remain as is.

  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara mtndew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    my moms ex husband
    Posts
    1,059

    Default

    Yeah. Not sure what Trion was thinking with this one. Game is a total bore, all melee classes are stupid easy. And mages and clerics require skill to be played. It just isn't fair to players who aren't accustomed to using keybinds. I'm used to using 30-40+ in WoW. Rift is just disappointing. I was hoping they would go about fixing this already.
    PVPimpin' Ain't PVEasy!

    Holla Holla Get Dolla

  4. #4
    Champion of Telara Silverangel69's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,329

    Default

    The 2-3 button macro seems more oriented to doing DPS. I think the problem is that beating encounters is so often just DPS.

    In LotRO, the vast majority of dungeons situations are won with tanking, healing, and strategy. They never talk about DPS meters over there, and they don't have any because they don't need them except for the very hardest raid situations. Fights are not designed to be DPS races. You can take mediocre-geared people doing average DPS and still win with strategy and good play.

    In Rift, you have this soul system where you simply can't count on a given group having access to CC and other specific skills that can work into a strategy to handle special situations in an encounter. All the designers can count on is DPS. "Support" is just to support tanking, healing, and DPS.

    So you have this DPS/don't step in the fire design. And so you have simplified DPS macros. Does this mean Rift will never be taken seriously? I don't think so. I've heard WoW is pretty much the same DPS mash, and that is successful.

  5. #5
    Sez
    Sez is offline
    Ascendant Sez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    4,142

    Default

    People take this game very seriously.

    So the obvious answer is No.
    Sez is now Zes on Dayblind

    - Rogue Lead - <Gestalt> - Defiant - Dayblind Server -

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara Flaviusx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,115

    Default

    If you hate macros, reroll mage. More buttons to press than you can shake a stick at.

  7. #7
    RIFT Community Ambassador the_real_seebs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    16,859

    Default

    I just don't use those macros; instead, I make my own choices about what to use and when. I do okay.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  8. #8
    Plane Touched abr4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    226

    Default

    Still plenty of buttons to press in PvP as a warrior.

    I agree though that PvE is a bit of a bore.
    abr4

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vesane View Post
    good morning all. As I've been playing rift and leveling my main I've begun to look at endgame threads for a proper spec and rotation. While doing this I keep coming across threads that had to rotation down to a 2-3 button macro. This bothered me enough i decided to start the following thread that got out of hand mainly due to me questioning the wrong apsect of the game. http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...acro-rotations

    Needless to say after 14 pages of people going off at each other over stupid things I've been able to pinpoint what's really wrong with this game. While i do still feel macros need to have their usefulness broken by about 70% this isn't the thread to get into that.


    During the above thread I learned that while the macro rotations are part of the problem i see with this game, they're not the cause of the problem. The cause is the current combat system that allows my warrior to not need a real rotation just my 3 macros with no real punishment for doing it the easy way IE lower DPS. And the class design that allows my warrior to never have to worry about being in the middle of a rotation or missing a move and, having to start all over again because if that ever happens which it can't i'd just need to apply another combo point, use a finisher, or a reactive ability.


    Because of this i have to ask the following. does the current system hurt trion and rifts chances at becoming a super MMO? As a gamer i want to work for my stuff and be rewarded at an equal level for the work i put in, but the current system allows minimal effort because it's not restrictive in anyway and maximum reward. i hate comparing this game to other but the biggest thing i loved about my WoW lock was the priority system rotation. If i didn't play well i did crap dps and didn't get any rewards. so again as a gamer when i look at this game i don't see a rewarding challenge, i see a cakewalk ok i get cool stuff now.

    Does anyone else think that the current combat/class design needs to change for rift to have any real chance at becoming a super MMO? While i love this game and wish more people would play I see this as a big issue and can't think of anyone who would want to play this combat system over say WoWs.

    Sorry if it's a little rambly/incoherent I've been up for 18 hours

    oh ya could a mod please lock the linked thread lock not delete plox
    I agree with this, personally. However, I also agree with the poster below you.

    But, as far as the current combat system holding Rift back? No, I don't think so. In WoW, Arcane Mages spam Arcane Blastx4 and Arcane Missiles/Barrage (a guildie of mine put AB on his scroll wheel up and AM on scroll wheel down, with no other damage ability keybinds). Assassination Rogues spam Mutilate and Envenom (with the minor exception of putting Rupture on the target and using SnD once, switching to Backstab below 25%). There are only a few specs that aren't cooldown based or 2-button wonders. Subtlety Rogues, Feral Druids, Affliction Warlocks and a few more. With all that, WoW is the most successful MMO on the market.

    Others have pointed it out but, not all specs can be reduced to 2-4 macros. Riftstalker, Saboteur, and Bladedancer rogues, some (all? don't know mages that well) mage specs. I'm sure there are more, this is just off the top of my head. You can choose if you want to be a 2-button wonder or use a more complex priority system.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple Bragor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    104

    Default

    Removing Macros would just lead to progammable keyboards. I for myself would either use my G11 or the Nostromo to macro the skills if they'd get removed. I agree to the statement about LOTRO .. and would like to point at GW, where you only can take 8 skills with you out of 1200+ possible. You don't need macros there, and the game is fun without bazillion of skills.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    16

    Default

    I think people are becoming to focused on the macro/non-macro issue. The OP is saying (I believe) that the rotations don't necessarily need to be that much more complicated- they just need to include some choice and/or reactive abilities with a slightly different mechanics. Macros are not the root of the problem.

    A great example in my mind is the pyro mage's cinder burst ability. Yes, you can cast it with a full cast timer (there are even some in pvp who will do this so you don't know where the fire is coming from) but in general, we can agree that its not a good idea. If you full cast it, your dps goes down, if you insta proc it, your dps goes up. Very simple, but puts the ownness on the player. (to my knowledge there isn't a way to macro it so it only casts when its instant, and not otherwise- but im not good at macros, so I'm not sure).

    While overall the combat system isn't bad - it is certainly simple. Don't forget however - the 'average' player can only handle well, about 5 buttons. So I guess the solution isn't necessarily to make more buttons, and eliminate macros, but rather to include some choice/rotations, and reactive abilities.

    A bad player doesn't usually doesn't realize they are bad - and if they do, they probably have enough sense, to fix what they are doing wrong. Reward better players with more dps, heals, etc- and let the worse players figure it out. Don't: Here are your 3 buttons - everybody is even- just hit them fast.



    TLDR version - Don't focus on macros being the problem - give the player some choice, so that spam macros are inherently eliminated. Make is so that a 'good' player is rewarded more, and a 'bad' player is punished more.

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Flaviusx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,115

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mencken View Post


    Others have pointed it out but, not all specs can be reduced to 2-4 macros. Riftstalker, Saboteur, and Bladedancer rogues, some (all? don't know mages that well) mage specs. .
    Plainly not. Mages are the least susceptible class to macros in this game, due to the fact the macro system doesn't support casters thanks to a lack of castsequence function. Macros are strictly for melee or non casters, at any rate.

    We have a few very simple specs, but they are not simple because of macros -- they are simple because of a lack of spells to cast. Most mage specs, however, make vigorous use of keybinds.

    Mages try to reassure themselves that this makes them more macho than the other classes, because by God we have to WORK for our damage.
    Last edited by Flaviusx; 07-04-2011 at 05:44 AM.

  13. #13
    Telaran
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    97

    Default

    Allowing so many abilities to be stacked into one macro where the macro can prioritize things like using ranged abilities when at range, melee when at melee, reactive abilities on proc, all while prioritizing CD abilities and keeping up a spammable ability is just bad game design. To make it even worse the callings with the greater ability to macro their abilities to the fewest keybinds produce the highest output.

    So no, Rift cannot be taken seriously when it allows calling to be reduced to a few macros and then allows those calling to perform better than callings that cannot be reduced to a few macros.

    Ive never seen a game design that says the most difficult rotation will be rewarded with the lowest output while the easiest macro spamming rotation will be rewarded with the best output. Total fail.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    295

    Default

    If you don't like macros, play EQ2 and chase a button pattern around your 8+ hotbars. That feels like skill...for a while, until you want to actually look at the screen and see the game you're playing.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Again - let me direct people away from the macro vs. non-macro issue. Macros will always exist - if using them makes the game easier people will always use them. You can protest macros - and say I hotkey every ability - great - you lose. Macros are not the problem.

    The problem is as the poster 2 above states - you should not be able to prioritize spammable, reactive, cooldown, etc to 1 button and have it max your performance. Simply put- make the player make some choices about when to use certain abilities.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts