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Thread: Any hope for Rift's Class System?

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    Soulwalker Joker89's Avatar
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    Default Any hope for Rift's Class System?

    I have a simple question to ask everyone...

    Will we ever see the day when we can be happy with the class system offered by Rift?

    I just glanced at the posts to see if anything enteresting about the classes, and what do i see?

    Nothing but negativity to there roles classes.

    I don't know about everyone else, but i joined Rift excited for the class system. The idea of building a class that suited you and could be competitive in any situations you desired sold me on Rift.

    I join to find out, that with the millions of class mixing and builds you could make with the endless amount of skill mixing... there are less working builds than WoW.... and there all these crazy "1 macro spam" builds with amazing DPS, or something this one person made. To the creaters of those specs, that are now the top specs, kudos to you. But i don't want to be forced into playing your spec just to be competitive in Raids or PvP. This is only my opinion, but i have hope for Rift to make it to the point where one day i can take my rogue into a raid with something like a 51 Sin or Sab build and be competitive on the DPS charts, or take a mage into a raid seeing other mages running different specs all doing competitive DPS.

    What are everyones thoughts on this? am i alone in feeling restricted by what i wanna play in Rift?

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    min-maxing is min-maxing, this means that you'll always have something that's mathematically better than everitying else.
    if they make 51 sin better this will means that everything else will be -worse- as result even if everything else dont get touched because there's no "I was good before with my build so I'm still good now", there's just "he's the best so I'm not".
    Last edited by Ruizo; 07-03-2011 at 12:03 AM.
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    Soulwalker Joker89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruizo View Post
    min-maxing is min-maxing, this means that you'll always have something that's mathematically better than everitying else.
    if they make 51 sin better this will means that everything else will be -worse- as result even if everything else dont get touched because there's no "I was good before with my build so I'm still good now", there's just "he's the best so I'm not".
    True, but i guess this mix classing is just a bad concept. With it, it's impossible to balance with out a 1 build to rule them all coming out. Answered my own question it seems.

    "Rift, million builds to choose from! but only this one and this one will work.... HAVE FUN! ~Sincerely Trion"

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    this is a problem of minmaxers, not of the game - you dont need 2000dps to down greenscale, 1500 are more than enought - but if you dont do 2000 a minmaxer group wont take you.
    this is a social problem, not a mechanic problem - no way for trion to solve this.
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    Soulwalker Joker89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruizo View Post
    this is a problem of minmaxers, not of the game - you dont need 2000dps to down greenscale, 1500 are more than enought - but if you dont do 2000 a minmaxer group wont take you.
    this is a social problem, not a mechanic problem - no way for trion to solve this.
    I'm a rogue, i like simple builds (not simple as make a macro, spam til dead) i like 51p builds cause i've never enjoyed hybrid builds, yes there great but overly complicated to me. Are there any 51p rogue dps builds are safe to take in raids? i'm not enterested in chasing meters, but i don't want to go if the DPS is so bad i'm hurting the raid.
    Last edited by Joker89; 07-03-2011 at 12:38 AM.

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    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    Unless every build puts out the exact same DPS under all circumstances (which won't happen, ever) you'll always have builds which squeeze out a tiny bit more DPS under particular circumstances. But it makes so little difference that unless you're running an irredeemably horrible build, you'll probably do 95% as much DPS playing how you want to.

    You'll be competitive on DPS, but you probably won't be top. By definition only one person can ever be top, and they'll probably be running a build specifically designed to get the maximum DPS given their gear and the specifics of that fight.

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    Ascendant JimboTCB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker89 View Post
    Are there any 51p rogue dps builds are safe to take in raids? i'm not enterested in chasing meters, but i don't want to go if the DPS is so bad i'm hurting the raid.
    51point builds are usually garbage, but that's more to do with the design of the soul trees - between the weak root abilities and the amount of filler talents you need to take to get to 51pts, it's almost impossible to make a good build. Plus, 17pts in Assasin is so good that you're gimping yourself massively without it - by extension that makes Assasin (which, coincidentally, has a 51pt root ability which doesn't suck) about the only decent 51pt build.

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    PvE I think that any class system that uses points to increase damage will ALWAYS have an "ideal" spec, and anything other than that will be called "sub par".

    In PvP, I think it's as diverse as ever. I can only speak to Mage, but I have 3 PvP Chloro builds and a Dom build. They all incorporate different souls to counter different sets of opponents/teams.

    I definitely don't feel "locked" into a spec for PvP. I think if you have the skill, the sky is the limit (with a little intelligent choice thrown in).
    Stigas - 50 Defiant Mage - Rank 5
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    Prophet of Telara NatashaK's Avatar
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    Min/maxing is a symptom of instances. If there were some chance of PvP in a PvE fight or you were allowed to "bring more" or you were allowed to be mobile and hit some different objective (or two ways around any problem in general), you'd see vastly more hybrid classes.

    I love the class/soul system.

    The invasions / open world rifts are great. The new PvP quests are a good start. If they build on this, rather than more instances, RIFT still has a change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker89 View Post
    I'm a rogue, i like simple builds (not simple as make a macro, spam til dead) i like 51p builds cause i've never enjoyed hybrid builds, yes there great but overly complicated to me. Are there any 51p rogue dps builds are safe to take in raids? i'm not enterested in chasing meters, but i don't want to go if the DPS is so bad i'm hurting the raid.
    How do you define "hurting the raid" is the problem with what you're saying. If your 51pt assassin build does 99% of the damage of a sabdancer build, you're still hurting the raid.

    A min-maxer doesn't care about what build he uses, as long as it's the highest one. If you're not a min-maxer, spec what you like. This problem exists even in wow. Mages ping-pong back and forth between arcane and fire, Warriors are fury, Rogues are assassination, Warlocks ping-pong betweeen Affliction and Destruction, etc. My rogue had dual subtlety specs because that's the spec I enjoyed.

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    Rift Disciple Mephane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruizo View Post
    this is a problem of minmaxers, not of the game - you dont need 2000dps to down greenscale, 1500 are more than enought - but if you dont do 2000 a minmaxer group wont take you.
    this is a social problem, not a mechanic problem - no way for trion to solve this.
    QFT! I've never made my builds for min-maxing, neither here nor in any other MMO, and guess what - I am very happy about the class system in Rift. Sure there's never perfect balance, ever, in any game, but Trion did quite a good job at the current system.

    *Looking forward to new souls added in expansions instead of new classes, yay*
    The Wardisitor - because sometimes you just can't decide!

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    Basically there's two ways that a game developer can go here - they can make players differentiate by making some specific skills a requirement - for eg if your raid dont have the 44pt skill from soul A, everybody dies, if it dont have the 44pt skill from soul B, everybody dies and so on - this way you'll have what looks like a differentiated raid but actually every one in it will be completely rolecasted with no variety at all.
    or they can make the encounter as more "role unsensitive" as possible but this way you'll leave free rein to min-maxers and even a relative minor differency in power levels will get you class/build stacking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joker89 View Post
    I have a simple question to ask everyone...

    Will we ever see the day when we can be happy with the class system offered by Rift?

    I just glanced at the posts to see if anything enteresting about the classes, and what do i see?

    Nothing but negativity to there roles classes.

    I don't know about everyone else, but i joined Rift excited for the class system. The idea of building a class that suited you and could be competitive in any situations you desired sold me on Rift.

    I join to find out, that with the millions of class mixing and builds you could make with the endless amount of skill mixing... there are less working builds than WoW.... and there all these crazy "1 macro spam" builds with amazing DPS, or something this one person made. To the creaters of those specs, that are now the top specs, kudos to you. But i don't want to be forced into playing your spec just to be competitive in Raids or PvP. This is only my opinion, but i have hope for Rift to make it to the point where one day i can take my rogue into a raid with something like a 51 Sin or Sab build and be competitive on the DPS charts, or take a mage into a raid seeing other mages running different specs all doing competitive DPS.

    What are everyones thoughts on this? am i alone in feeling restricted by what i wanna play in Rift?
    Probably not, I don't think they will ever be able to achieve balance in this game. Even if it is possible, I don't have much faith in the developers to fix the game with regards to PvP. I cancelled two accounts last week because of lack of balance. Only a couple of days left until the billing period runs out and my time in Rift comes to an end. Trion nerfed every soul I tried to play. I got tired of having to change souls every time Trion decides to "balance" (read breaks) the game. The lack of class balance aside PvP in Rift is still a basketcase in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by derGOAT View Post
    I got tired of having to change souls every time Trion decides to "balance" (read breaks) the game.
    Welcome to every MMO ever made.

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    Telaran
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    The developers have stated they only try to balance the callings with each other, they do not try to balance the souls within each calling. They have also said this means it will be very possible to build a spec that is total garbage.

    And while mix / max types will always find the one spec that does a bit more than others, I do think it is possible to have more option that are within a few percent of each other than we have now.

    There is still a big difference between being asked to play a 2k spec over a 1.5k spec (25% lower) and being asked to play a 2k spec over a 1.9k (5% lower) spec.

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