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Thread: The problem with 51 point abilities...

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
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    Default The problem with 51 point abilities...

    is that you end up with a ridiculous amount of abilities that are literally useless.

    For instance, if I want to raid with a mage I can spend 51 points in Pyromancer and end up with about 25 points that would otherwise be spent getting all sorts of useful things like spell crit buffs, spells and passive abilities and get Fulminate instead.

    Does one useful spell (Fulminate) outweigh all the other crap that will absolutely never see a hotkey in a raid? Obviously not.

    So Trions has three options:

    1. Make 51 point abilities so ridiculously powerful I don't mind the other 25 wasted points

    2. Make every single talent in every tree useful

    3. Forget about ever trying to make pure builds (51 points in one soul) viable

  2. #2
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    Why do they have options? What happens if they don't follow your three rules? Will Trion close? Or will it be another £8.99 they don't receive each month? If they made all skills imba, where would be the balance in that? Also, there'd be simply too many abilities to use that the majority of won't even make it into a fight, thus making them redundant anyway.

    Trion don't HAVE to do anything. It's their game. They can do what they want widdit. AIGHT!?
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    @OP Learn to think outside the box and use all of your abilities even if they're very situational. I can't speak for the mage calling, but on my rogue I am 51 MM spec for experts and I have all my abilities even the stupidest ones hot keyed and I can say that I've used all of my abilities, except things that got upgradded such as hit and run, in expert dungeons. You just have to know when to use them and when they're useless, that's what comes with experience in playing your class and that's why you'll be chosen over the faceroll person who can get out of the fire but can't evolve and learn to use all of their abilities.

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    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    i agree with the OP, 51pt (and even some 31pt) abilities are not good enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    i agree with the OP, 51pt (and even some 31pt) abilities are not good enough.
    I cannot stress how much this is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Detill5869 View Post
    5000 damage reminds me why I started a mage. can't wait to hit 50 and kill lots of players in pvp with my 5000 damage attacks.

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    It's not so much that the 51 point abiliites themselves are exactly terrible. But to get to them you are forced to buy a whole shed full of talents you will find yourself not using ever. What you gain with the 51 point ability rarely (I know there's a few that do work okayish at 51) makes up for what you were forced to lose by buying so many overly gimmicky or flat out useless talents when you could have hybrided to get a full 66 points worth of good talents.

    I know I said the following before in another topic, heh:

    I believe that there needs to be a strong passive buff gained at spending the full 51 points in the soul (in addition to the current 51 abilities). Not to force people to spend 51, don't misunderstand me, but just to narrow the difference in power between the hybrid and pure specs as much as possible.

    Obviously said passive would be unique to each soul and vary in power. Based on how weak said soul turns out to be at 51 at the moment. Some examples to show what I'm trying to explain (that's examples not demands; I know these specifically would be over/underpowered):


    51 Bard: Avatar of Karine (passive) - Increases duration of Motifs.
    51 Nightblade: Avatar of Acacia (passive) - Increased chance for Weapon Enchantments to proc.
    51 Bladedancer: Avatar of Estrael (passive) - Increased power and duration of all Rhythmic abilities.
    51 Assassin: Avatar of Veseslav (passive) - Increased critical damage

    51 Warlord: Avatar of Borte (passive) - Battlefield Awareness grants block, dodge and parry chance after using Calls.
    51 Paragon: Avatar of Won Odego (passive)- Increased dual weapon attack damage.
    51 Champion: Avatar of Vachir (passive) - Increased finisher damage when using two handed weapons.

    51 Warlock: Avatar of Neddra (passive) - Increased Death magic damage.
    51 Pyromancer: Avatar of Phynnious (passive) - Increased Fire magic critical damage.

    Well you get the idea, I'm sure. Generally something emphasing that 51 point builds should be extremely specialised but damned good at what they do do. It doesn't exactly work out that way currently.
    Last edited by Kedon; 06-13-2011 at 05:09 AM.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    every last tree should have a 51pt talent that says something along the lines of : increases effectiveness of this trees abilities by 50%, else they will never beat a hybrid for dps or healing or tanking because they aren't as effective!
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
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    I don't really think 51 point builds should beat a hybrid for DPS or healing or tanking though.

    Think about a typical hybrid build... every single point you invest goes towards maximizing the one thing you want that build to do. As a DPS, you don't spend points on fluff abilities, defensive cooldowns, etc... you maximize your DPS. A 51 point build, by definition, does pick up all of those utility points. So, if a 51 point build does the most DPS, why would anyone use a hybrid build to do the same DPS but without the safety of the defensive cooldowns, or the utility abilities like interrupts, stuns, movement speed, etc?

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    Plane Walker Alder's Avatar
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    51pt abilities should bring something to the table that no hybrid can and make you consider not going hybrid. Perhaps a new trait that enhances the group or raid in a way that it can't be overlooked. It would obviously mean less utility and dps but more focus into what the soul is about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FellintoOblivion View Post
    Does one useful spell (Fulminate) outweigh all the other crap that will absolutely never see a hotkey in a raid? Obviously not.
    Considering the amount of players using fulminate ( or other 51 points skills ), I'd say it does?

    But yes, you're right about one thing, if you get a 51 points skills, you get TONS of horrible skills, and thus, the 51 points ability should be freaking awesome, not just "good".

    It is true with some of those 51 points skills, but for most souls, it isn't.



    Withing your 3 options, #1 is the best ( actually, it's the only viable imho ).
    Quote Originally Posted by FellintoOblivion View Post
    So Trions has three options:

    1. Make 51 point abilities so ridiculously powerful I don't mind the other 25 wasted points

    2. Make every single talent in every tree useful

    3. Forget about ever trying to make pure builds (51 points in one soul) viable
    #3 is out of the question. Not from a balance point of view, but just because it would suck, and it'd be pointless to have trees that huge if getting to the top/bottom is useless. It would also remove lot of options for the player.

    #2 is basically impossible.
    Any aggro related ability is useless in PVP. So being a pure-soul pvp tank would be impossible without having useless abilities. Tons of PVP CC/anti-cc abilities are also useless for most PVE content.

    #1 solution works good. You sacrifice tons of stuff you could get from other souls, in order to get an amazing 51 points ability.
    It give choices to the player, who now can decide between getting that amazing ability ( most likely a cooldown ), or to get tons of great ability ( +% crits, some CC's, buffs/debuffs, random spells/attacks... ) that works in their rotations, and not just once per 2-3-4-5 minutes.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Korrow's Avatar
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    51 point abilities should be creme de la creme...

    right now people don't spec into 51 for the ability in the most part ( maybe Pyro's do). The reason most people run 51 builds is for the passive talents.

    51 Purifier is the best Tank healer hands down in the game. Not because of the 51 point ability but because 51 points buff their sheilds like crazy.

    51 Riftstalker/Justicar ... increase their HP and Mit by a large amount.

    51 Chloro is a powerful healer...

    51 Achron is a must in any raid...

    Where the 51 point builds lack is DPS. Because DPS need to maximise their DPS... wasting 10 points in a few talents that give some survivability doesn't increase DPS, although one could argue a dead dos does no damage.

    Hybrids rule DPS specs... 51 point specs are specialized beasts in a different way

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Jorun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FellintoOblivion View Post
    is that you end up with a ridiculous amount of abilities that are literally useless.

    ......

    So Trions has three options:

    1. Make 51 point abilities so ridiculously powerful I don't mind the other 25 wasted points

    2. Make every single talent in every tree useful

    3. Forget about ever trying to make pure builds (51 points in one soul) viable
    #1 - 51 points in a soul doesn't mean it's the only soul. You have 15 more points plus a zero point souls. 51 Warden, 15 sentinel and 0 purifer is a super fine healer. 51 Stormcaster 15 Dom or Archon with 0 elementalist is bit....chin!

    #2. No such thang as a "pure build" unless you refuse to have a 0 point soul and don't spend the additional 15 points in another soul or two.

    #3 Want a real fine 51 point raiding mage? Try archon 51 with 15 chloro and 0 dom or 10 cholo 5 dom. Personally I would keep the 3rd soul as 0 point so I could switch out with other mage souls. But then, that's me.

    And BTW, to you there may be spells/abilities that you don't need to use. Other people may find those "useless" spells/abilities very useful.

    There is always more than one way to skin a cat!


  13. #13
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    It could be that Trion actually wants you to mix/match souls instead of spending 51 points all in 1 soul, I know thats crazy talk. Obviously, there are some viable 51 point souls like archon and bard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Korrow View Post
    51 Riftstalker/Justicar ... increase their HP and Mit by a large amount.

    51 Chloro is a powerful healer...
    These are wrong, they aren't as good as you think, at least Justicar and chloro (lol 51 pt chloro). Also, 51 purifier isn't that good outside of using it for a specific mechanic in 1 event.

  15. #15
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    It'd be nice if there were more 32-50 point abilities to make up for the less than spectacular talents you have to take, its a bit sparse on most souls, and most of those are long-cooldowns like the 51 point abiilities or just as bad as the talents they go with.

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