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Thread: Why RIFT cannot possibly be "balance", and why Mages need reroll Rogue

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    Default Why RIFT cannot possibly be "balance", and why Mages need reroll Rogue

    The inability of MMO players to think about certain game mechanics makes class balancing an impossible task.

    This situation leads to a fundamental disadvantage for classes that rely on delivering large damage in a single hit, and a complete advantage for classes that don't.

    First of all, it is evident that 3000 damage delivered in one second, in the form of one spell, is equal to 3000 damage delivered in the form of a 1500 melee attack + two other 750 off-GCD attacks within one second. Note, however, that there has been relatively little QQ regarding the second scenario. This is because most players (and RIFT's player base is mostly adult, which saddens me) are not capable of adding 1500+750+750=3000.

    When a player is hit with a single large yellow number, the immediate response is to start a QQ thread on the forums with the SC. When that same player is struck by a load of charges from a sab that amounts to 4k damage, he sees only a collection of smaller yellow numbers, which, though equally deadly, are somehow much less impactful on his psyche.

    This is the reason why the developers give DoTs much higher net damage than instant spells. A fireball that hits for 1.5k will be seen as imba, while a Necrosis that does 3k over 20 seconds will not.

    When a rogue delivers 5k damage within 4 seconds, lands a kill, and then vanishes, no one feels butt-hurt. If a pyro builds 100 charge over 10 seconds and fulminates for 5k (yes it was possible when red orb gave 100% SP), however, the target is sure to QQ on the forums with a screen shot even though it took more time for the pyro to kill him.

    Another such example is GCD. A 1 second instead of 1.5 second GCD does not result in a bigger yellow number, even if it does result in 50% more damage. That is why there will never be any QQ against it. Players are unaware when fighting a rogue that their opponent is pulling out skills 50% faster, while doing the perceived "same" amount of damage. By the time a warrior that hits 1000 twice, a rogue will have done so 3 times.
    To the average player who only looks at the magnitude of each big yellow number however, the two combatants will appear equally matched. The correct thing to do here is to make warrior skills hit 1500, but that is impossible because the ignorant QQ that follows will flood all 5 continents of earth, and drown the Hamalayas under a mile of tears.

    Stealth is another such case. Entering combat with an unforseen and unpreventable stun from stealth is a huge advantage, but no one will QQ about it because it generates no big yellow numbers. Slip away is like a log-out button or god mode button that could be used mid-combat. It is not countered by DoTs or AoEs if the assassin has hidden veil. If not, he will have NB immunities, which do in fact made the rogue god-like for 8 seconds. Again, no big yellow number is generated by these two skills. The descriptions do not mention "heal for xxx health" or "reduce damage by xxx%". Though slip away and NB immunities are more effective than warrior full heals, there will never be any QQ against them.

    Kiting is a non-numerical tactical advantage that people actual recognize. Being kited is equal to having your damage reduced by 100%. This I suppose is why the melee classes received teleport-stuns and teleport-roots that also break snares, skills specifically designed to counter kiting. There is, however, no counter implemented against stealth and a lower GCD although they are similar mechanical advantages to kiting.

    Since the mage and warrior classes revolves around delivering big hits up-front and tanking big hits straight on as opposed to stacking many smaller hits or stealthing, they will always be oppressed. A rogue, on the other hand, can have much more overpowering abilities but will never be nerfed.

    It is mathematically certain that future balances will revolve around nerfing the visible advantages that mages and warriors have, while leaving the less visible rogue advantages alone. I can guarantee you that perma stealth and mid-combat stealth is here to stay, that sab charges and off-GCD serpent strikes will never be touched because these skills do not generate big yellow numbers.

    The damage of fulminate and cinder burst on the other hand?

    Heh... yea. Time to transfer items to that rogue alt.

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    Your post is only accurate if you assume Trion is unaware of these things and instead balances the game based solely on QQers on the forums. They have demonstrated repeatedly that while they do read the forums and address issues, they are capable of reaching their own conclusions that often differ from significant portions of the playerbase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archanouss View Post
    Heh... yea. Time to transfer items to that rogue alt.
    Maybe the best part of the thread, if you do, you start maybe writting less sheit on the forum

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    If TRION communicates witht he player base at all, and I am sure they do, they will need to bend to the most strident QQers to some degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnu View Post
    Maybe the best part of the thread, if you do, you start maybe writting less sheit on the forum
    Yea I do have a rogue alt, and I know first hand the contrast between playing a rogue as opposed to a mage. God bless slip away.

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    Slip away is overrated as an escape mechanic in group pvp, most time i blow it for more pressure on the opponent. (so it's just another 2 min cooldown to blow to turn the tide)

    Not that i'm often as Sin in a Warfront, most time the effect from me is bigger if I go with MM or Sabo anyway.
    Last edited by Agnu; 06-10-2011 at 07:26 AM.

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    1500+750+750 is not equal to one 3000 hit.


    - multiple hits trigger certain defensive skills more often, and for example, skills which activate/heal when the target is below a certain %, where a big hit would blow right past them
    - the 3000 hit only needs to crit once for ridiculous damage, rather than 3 seperate times


    And everyone with some common sense knows that both require setting up, but champions for example have a much harder time starting up... because you need to kill something before you can actually start spamming off-gcd crap. Rogues have far less off-GCD skills and generally are even more screwed when kited.


    But a pyro? Just get 100 charge, select any target within 30 f*cking meters and click a button or two. Have fun respawning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archanouss View Post
    If TRION communicates witht he player base at all, and I am sure they do, they will need to bend to the most strident QQers to some degree.
    No they won't. Any MMO company, or any company at all, understands that you can't please everyone. Trion needs to focus on making the best game they can, and that means being able to listen to players and deciding for themselves what the proper changes (if any) are.

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    what the OP failed to point out is...

    Mages do their massive damage at range while rogues have to be in mele.

    Even with stealth and slipaway there is a greater risk to the rogue than the mage.

    If Rangers and MMs were pulling the same DPS as mages the OP would have a leg to stand on but as is this is not the case.
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    actually they DO inflicct the same damage as mages in PVP, in PVE they dish out even more damge than
    any mage build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinadass View Post
    Your post is only accurate if you assume Trion is unaware of these things and instead balances the game based solely on QQers on the forums.
    Making balance decisions based on forum whines is a time honored tradition in MMOs.

    The Mage nerfs now on the PTS show that Trion is following that tradition.
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    What i do not understand is why so many peeps think PVP is always one on one.

    A key advantage all the pyros tend to ignore is they can build charge on ANYONE, and then target ANYONE else in range to boomshot to victory.

    A rogue, unless specced 31 points into riftstalker can only use finishers on the target they built their combo points on. And if the target happens to die from someone else, well, all combo points lost - time to start over. A mage however, if their current target dies, they do not lose all their charge, it carries until they use it.

    Lastly to anyone who says "its easy to find the pyros, and if you let them live long enough to cast fulminate, you deserve to die" i am sorry, but in port scion, i think you are severely overestimating how easy it is to find the pyro in a 20 on 20 match.... Not to mention trying to get to him mid stormcaller spam.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivengar View Post
    what the OP failed to point out is...

    Mages do their massive damage at range while rogues have to be in mele.

    Even with stealth and slipaway there is a greater risk to the rogue than the mage.

    If Rangers and MMs were pulling the same DPS as mages the OP would have a leg to stand on but as is this is not the case.
    The funny things is MMs DO have the same DPS as mages in PvP now (had been since 1.2) and their deadeye shot comes with an instant cast and hits for numbers not much lower than fulm. This is all fine...but then coms the 1 second GCD. multiply any MM hit you take by 50% to get an idea of what 1 second GCD means in terms of DPS.

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    Nadesico recognizes a non-yellow number advantage that mages have. Now, compare that advantage to mid-combat stealth, and 50% faster GCD.

    What would happen if mages had heatwave on permanently?

    Now we see the true scope of the power of 1 second GCD...

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    Quote Originally Posted by archanouss View Post
    Nadesico recognizes a non-yellow number advantage that mages have. Now, compare that advantage to mid-combat stealth, and 50% faster GCD.

    What would happen if mages had heatwave on permanently?

    Now we see the true scope of the power of 1 second GCD...
    There is no rogue build/rotation in the game that maintains a 1.0 second GCD for any length of time, even with every available energy cost reduction buff and talent.

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