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Thread: (PvE) Tanks: From a healer

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    Default (PvE) Tanks: From a healer

    Please get mitigation and stop telling people how awesome your hitpoints are. Having stupid amounts of hitpoints is great, but not if the healer can't keep up with the incoming damage because you have no mitigation to reduce incoming damage. Your job as a tank is to do two things:
    1. Keep the mobs attacking you.
    2. Mitigate or otherwise reduce incoming damage so that the healer can keep you alive while things beat on you.

    Also, before anyone comes and tells me about diminishing returns, please read the following (taken from HERE and slightly modified/shortened):

    Armour: The number you see on your gear. A piece of plate might have 700 armor on it.
    Mitigation: The % of incoming physical damage that your armor reduces. A warrior might have 60% damage reduction from mitigation.
    Time to Live: Also called survivability. Your hitpoints and mitigation from armour combined will allow you to stay alive for a certain length of time under a given rate of damage incoming.

    If you've got 10,000 hitpoints and 50% mitigation(0.5), your time to live against a mob doing 2000 raw damage is 10 seconds. = hitpoints/((1-mitigation)*raw damage)

    Mitigation (the percentage) is subject to diminishing returns, but armour (the number) is not. Get MOAR armour NAO!

    I also encourage you to read the linked article and to understand it. It will help you and anyone who has to heal you. Also, if you're flush with funds, there are potions and 4hour temp runes that you can get to increase your armor, go get some.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

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    If you tell me how to get more armor? I can't do more than wear tank leather, rite?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agnu View Post
    If you tell me how to get more armor? I can't do more than wear tank leather, rite?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    there are potions and 4hour temp runes that you can get to increase your armor, go get some.
    That aside though, this was more aimed at a few problems I've been seeing more and more of late. If you ask a tank what their gear is like, they will tell you toughness and hitpoints. I don't think I've ever seen one even mention mitigation. I did have one tell me that he has 60% block though.

    Personally I think there needs to be a mit check for the dungeon finder as well. Sure you've got 50 toughness, you're supposedly 'ready' to tank for T1s... but half your toughness is coming from the rune on your chest and you've got boots from level 20, your gloves are from that quest you did back in scarlet gorge and you have 4 empty slots in your source machine.

    Alot of this comes down to spec choices as well as gear choices. Yes you can only wear leather if you're a rogue, but the difference between a piece of leather with 25 less armor vs 5 END, you should take the extra armor. There will be times when the extra stats will be worth more than the armor, but generally speaking, you will get enough END from gear which gives you better armor.

    As far as spec is concerned, I see lots of Clerics only putting 44pts into Justicar, or Rogues only putting 44pts in RS. The difference between 44 and 51pts justicar is 7% armor, which i basically like taking a piece of gear off. Try tanking a zone without your shoulder armor on. It makes it harder on the healer. It's even worse for a Riftstalker, as Rift Guard will lose a flat 3.5% damage reduction, as well as 35% of your hitpoints in absorbtion amount.

    There are times when it is worth it to drop that armor for Utility. For instance on a boss mob that only does magical damage, losing 7% of your physical armor is not going to be a huge deal. Or maybe you need to drop points out of Riftstalker in order to get both an interupt and another ability in another soul. That interupt might be used to stop the boss from Death-Touching you. As long as what you're getting is worth the loss.

    I had a warrior who used to tank for me, and he had several different tanking specs (think he had 3) that he would swap between. Used the same gear as far as I could tell, but the spec changed and his survivability (and hence, how hard it was to heal him) changed greatly. If you're a raid geared tank running through IT with a raid geared healer, sure, go ahead and drop points from your tank souls, or take more offensive talents. But when you're a fresh 50, or even a T1 geared tank just stepping into T2s, you NEED to take those extra mitigation talents or you're gonna get your *** pushed in.

    Another concept I wanted to bring up is hitpoints versus a tiny amount of mitigation. Say you have a choice between 250 hitpoints and 0.5% mitigation. Which should you take? I would say take the mitigation. 0.5% doesn't sound like much, but when you're getting hit for 500 (low in alot of fights) per swing, from 4 different mobs, it will quickly add up to be a hell of alot more than 250 damage you've mitigated.

    0.5% mitigation against 4 mobs each doing 500 damage per swing will take 25 swings each to save you 250 hitpoints. This should take about 30-40 seconds. If you make it 2k hits, well 0.5% of 2000 is 10. So in 25 swings from a boss you will have covered it.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

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    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
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    I agree with you for the most part, but hps is not a secondary stat.

    Hps helps with spike damage. So whlie it's true if you arnen't mitigating any real damage then hps won't be useful, in general a rule of thumb hps > mitigation. If you're talking about 1% migiation vs 250 hps, I'd take the 250 hps anyday.

    Most raid mobs for example hit for ~2k or so, with higher specials. So 1% of 2k is a 20 damage decrease. Considering the amount of overhealing there usually is, I'd take the hps anyday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    I agree with you for the most part, but hps is not a secondary stat.
    I didn't say it was secondary. It is still important. What I'm saying is that you should be focusing onmitigation over hitpoints, and you'll get enough hitpoints from that gear anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    Hps helps with spike damage. So whlie it's true if you arnen't mitigating any real damage then hps won't be useful, in general a rule of thumb hps > mitigation. If you're talking about 1% migiation vs 250 hps, I'd take the 250 hps anyday.
    Thats a pretty poor rule of thumb. How many hitpoints would you take over how much mitigation? There comes a point where you have enough hitpoints to survive any spike. At that point, hitpoints become irrelevant, and all that matters is mitigation (or damage for extra threat). There also is a point in mitigation, where no amount of hitpoints is going to let your healer keep you alive through that amount of damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayi View Post
    Most raid mobs for example hit for ~2k or so, with higher specials. So 1% of 2k is a 20 damage decrease. Considering the amount of overhealing there usually is, I'd take the hps anyday.
    Slightly different in raids... though I can't recall the last time I saw anyone queing with the LFD tool to run GSB Still, I was talking about expert dungeons.


    EDIT: I've healed a cleric tank with only 6k hitpoints through zones with ease... and had issues healing a 12k hp warrior through the same zone the next day. Twice as many hitpoints, and alot harder to heal.
    Last edited by Paikis; 06-08-2011 at 08:28 PM.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

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    Shield of Telara DeadlySight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    EDIT: I've healed a cleric tank with only 6k hitpoints through zones with ease... and had issues healing a 12k hp warrior through the same zone the next day. Twice as many hitpoints, and alot harder to heal.
    It's great that you see it that way, as a Chloro I'd take the 12k hp warrior anyday. Considering my Nature's Touch crit heals for 8-10k every 6.5 seconds the larger HP pool you have the better. If something goes wrong and I cant cast a heal due to some mechanic (happens often in T2s) the larger pool you have to draw upon the better. I'm going to full heal any tank in the game with a NT Crit + Ruin no matter what your HP/Mit is, might as well waste less
    Lee Trevino, on why he has never had a golf coach: "When I find one who can beat me, I'll listen."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlySight View Post
    It's great that you see it that way, as a Chloro I'd take the 12k hp warrior anyday. Considering my Nature's Touch crit heals for 8-10k every 6.5 seconds the larger HP pool you have the better. If something goes wrong and I cant cast a heal due to some mechanic (happens often in T2s) the larger pool you have to draw upon the better. I'm going to full heal any tank in the game with a NT Crit + Ruin no matter what your HP/Mit is, might as well waste less
    Mine crits for 7-9k-ish. Doesn't change the fact that some tanks will be getting killed in those 6.5 seconds between full heals, due to either bad spec, bad gear, or bad pulls. Generally speaking, a warrior with 12k HP would be pretty well geared anyway and shouldn't be a problem to heal fairly easily, so I'm going to put it down to his spec, since the pull wasn't bad and I've easily healed that fight before.

    Think of it in terms of 'effective hitpoints'. Your eHP is your total hitpoints divided by 1 minus your mitigation as a decimal.

    eHP = HP / (1-M)

    Any increase in mitigation or hitpoints is going to increase your effective hitpoints. However, having a higher mitigation will effectively increase the value of incoming heals, where more hitpoints just gives you more buffer. More buffer is good, more valuable heals is better. Take for example, a warrior with 50% mitigation and 10,000 hitpoints. He increases his mitigation to 52%.

    Old eHP: 10,000 / (1-0.5) = 20,000 eHP, or 20,000 raw damage to kill him.
    New eHP: 10,000 / (1-0.52) = 20833 eHP.

    By adding just 2% mitigation at 50%, he's effectively gained 833 hitpoints. A 1,000pt heal used to be worth 2000 raw damage. Now it's worth 2083 raw damage (the amount of damage required to 'undo' that heal has increased). It gets better. Let's take the same warrior with his same 10,000 hitpoints. But let's give him a different spec now and say that he's taken a point out of a damage ability and put it into talent that reduces damage taken by 2%.

    Old eHP: 10,000 / (1-0.75) = 40,000 eHP
    New eHP: 10,000 / (1-0.77) = 43,478 eHP

    Extra 3,478 effective hitpoints, without adding any extra hitpoints.

    Now obviously these numbers are taken in a vacuum and are assuming no previously existing DR talents, or block/parry/dodge. But you can see the idea. Hit points are nice as buffer, and you need a certain amount of it, I jsut value mitigation more on tanks. If you can survive for 10 seconds without a heal, you're fine either way... more mitigation magnifies the effectiveness of my heals though.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    If you can survive for 10 seconds without a heal, you're fine either way... more mitigation magnifies the effectiveness of my heals though.

    lol at this.. a T1 Gear cleric tank can survive 10 sec's worth of attacks in T2 npz
    Self heal ftw + 50% extra healing inc + sheilds + reprive...

    when all them run out tho ;-) o dear ;-)

    and cleric tanks have worse mitigation possible it seems

  9. #9
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    with how low the hp pools are atm, equal are important.

    try healing a 8k hp rogue and a 12k hp one.. you will notice a huge diferance cause you will overheal less and have more time to react when things dont go right.

    but i dont know a single tank whose main concern is not mitigration. As a fact, all tank gear (the one with the full endurance) also is the same gear that has mitigration stats on it (block, parry, dodge, etc). So, when a tank tells you he has X amount of hp, you can automatically judge that he also has high amount of mitigration. When a tank tells you he has 9k hp, then you can automatically tell that he is NOT in full tank gear but he is missing several pieces.
    Last edited by shroudb; 06-09-2011 at 04:21 AM.

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    A tank with healthy gear/spec/rotation/skill is 10 times easier to heal than a tank with ****ty gear, and/or ****ty spec, and/or ****ty rotation, and/or flat out dont know how to play (eg not watching adds, or build up enough aggro then go autoattack and afk).

    Most noobs and wowbads blame healers first. Try solo main heal a tank with 200+ toughness in expert CC, then try again but swap out the tank with under 100 toughness.

    Want the most obvious examples? I am playing archon/chloro and I solo healed every single T2.

    My guild is 5/5 GSB and 3/5 RoS atm. When we run T2 within our own guildie I will be doing Archon dps+little heals 70% of the time then chloro bigger heal for the rest 30% of the time. Maintaining 700+ dps while solo healing is sweet as ****.

    Pugging with LFG dude and in exp CC with a tank in half T1 suit, I will be doing chloro 120% of the time, and will barely have time to bloom/flourish other newbs that stood in AoEs and laser beams and dont even know wtf is going on.

  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara TyrLith's Avatar
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    i love how u cry for armor, when the most damage a tank takes is from spells that totally ignore it ;)

    also i love how you linked a WOW related page that has no reference to RIFt whatsoever...

    yes armor works the same way wooo.. there's also a thousandfold more magical damage from instances compared to wow.
    Last edited by TyrLith; 06-09-2011 at 06:11 AM.

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    If you want me to use consumables in T2s can i check if you do it too?

    For the rest, we can't change a thing with our armor, as long as we wear full tank gear, because thats it.

    The trade off is endurance vs. dodge/parry/dex/str

    (ok i could go bard instead of ranger in my soul combination, but i dont think thats a solution for more mitigation ;) )
    Last edited by Agnu; 06-09-2011 at 06:52 AM.

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    the difference for a cleric tank between a 51 point build and a 44 point build for me is 1% physical damage mitigation (when we already have alot i have around 60% in basically full t1 gear) and 1 skill.

    i have 7 percent elemental resist and even less life and death. (im talking pre group buffs here)

    the only way for me to mitigate that damage is through endurance or maybe having 3 different sets of essences, (anyone have 20k planarite i can borrow?)

    that being said given the current gear itemization its pretty hard to get it wrong. you either have "the gear" or you dont. the gear that has more toughness on it is the best gear, it also has the best armor and secondary stats. even runes are mostly itemized so theres only a couple choices for what rune to put on per slot and it depends more on stat caps (for toughness/hit) than anything else. to me theres not much creativity gear wise in this game its all pretty much handed to you.

    toughness is the most importnant stat to a tank (up to cap)

    i always take max avoidance if i can even at the expense of HP.

    bad players are bad, there are bad tanks, bad dps, and bad healers.
    Last edited by Shieldy; 06-09-2011 at 07:50 AM.
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    A tank that meets the appropriate tier requirement for toughness without runes should have adequate mitigation, unless they are running a strange spec like Pld/Champ/Par. While pots/ runes would help they are really overkill for anything less then raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    EDIT: I've healed a cleric tank with only 6k hitpoints through zones with ease... and had issues healing a 12k hp warrior through the same zone the next day. Twice as many hitpoints, and alot harder to heal.
    This is hyperbole. It's extremely unlikely that a warrior with the gear to achieve 12k HP is going to have worse mitigation than a cleric with 6k. I get that you're trying to emphasize your point but straying outside what's reasonable doesn't add any credibility.

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