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Thread: MOAR HEALZ is not the answer! (PvE)

  1. #1
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    Default MOAR HEALZ is not the answer! (PvE)

    I was going to post this in the Rogue forum, but since it turned into a general rant instead of the bard rant it was going to be, I'll put it here.

    Why is it that everytime someone dies in a group the rogue immediately screams out 'OMG I HAF BARD SPEC LOLOL' and thinks that its actually going to be useful?

    I ran an xFC PUG last night and the DPS was horribad. To put it into perspective, we had 7 rounds of bombs on the countess. We eventually made it to the Queen (after a 6 minute fight with Mafricos) and as we were steadily being buried under piles of spiders I watched the DPS... they were all focus firing the Queen and not even trying to kill the little spiders. Eventually I couldn't keep up with healsand we died under a wave of spiders. First thing I see in group chat is "I can bard". No, you cant. We died because the DPS was crap and couldn't slash its way through a soggy newspaper, and you want to make our DPS WORSE by going bard? Thats the exact opposite of what we need!

    It's VERY rare that the solution to a problem in a 5man is MOAR HEALZ! Usually the solution is more along the lines of 'If it's already dead, I don't need to heal it'. I have yet to run into a situation where it was worth the loss in damage for the group to get the DPS to go support. I don't need support heals, I just want someone who can make stuff die. Waiting for old age to set in does not count.

    Incidently, mages and clerics are guilty of this too. When Im healing, the amount of times I get asked if I need 'help' with healing is insane. We wipe because the DPS is too low to kill the guy before we get burried in adds, and too stupid to swap to those adds to kill them, and the first thing that people think is: I better go heals!

    There are posts on these class forums which basically hold your hand through a DPS spec, giving macros, exact placement of points etc. There is absolutely no excuse for DPS being lower than 300-400 on ANY calling even as a fresh 50. With nothing but a 2hander he bought off the AH and the gear he leveled in, my friend was pulling 450 DPS on single targets in T1s about 30 minutes after hitting 50 on his warrior, and he was doing it with a build and macros that he said he got off this very forum. The two hander cost him 7p.

    Bad healer can be the issue sometimes, but alot of the time I'm standing there scratching my head and wondering if the DPS is trying to kill it with wet noodles or something?

    /rant
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

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  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Preach the Word, brother! I've grouped with 2 SCs that did less than 300 ST, 500 AE.

    Unfortunately this is mindless ranting, since the answers are on this forum and the people we are ranting about do not have the answers... therefore probably are not reading this forum or this post ranting about them. Ignorance can be bliss! I'm surprised there isn't an outcry to ban the forums from the same people that want to ban dps meters.
    Last edited by Angler; 05-30-2011 at 09:25 PM.

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara DeadlySight's Avatar
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    as a geared out mage I strongly disagree. When I'm pulling well over 1k ST Dps and we wipe I'll shrug it off. 2nd wipe and I force the cleric/other mage w/e to DPS and I'll solo heal it. I can/have Solo healed/duod almost every boss in T1/T2. It takes forever but if I'm chloro I KNOW we won't wipe even if all 3 DPS are terrible and find ways to get themselves killed.

    I guess the difference is I won't "ask" if you need help healing. If we wipe twice that's it, you're done attempting to heal my T2
    Lee Trevino, on why he has never had a golf coach: "When I find one who can beat me, I'll listen."

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlySight View Post
    as a geared out mage I strongly disagree. When I'm pulling well over 1k ST Dps and we wipe I'll shrug it off. 2nd wipe and I force the cleric/other mage w/e to DPS and I'll solo heal it. I can/have Solo healed/duod almost every boss in T1/T2. It takes forever but if I'm chloro I KNOW we won't wipe even if all 3 DPS are terrible and find ways to get themselves killed.

    I guess the difference is I won't "ask" if you need help healing. If we wipe twice that's it, you're done attempting to heal my T2
    That's alot of arrogance to have come from just one person... are you some kind of hive mind?

    Pissing contest aside (blah blah, solo healed everything as well), how is the healer's fault/failing when there are just too many adds? How is it the healer's fault if the tank can't keep agro off the healer (I know you're a mage, Chloros generate alot of hate and you know it). How is it the healer's fault if you fail a DPS check?

    This thread isn't about me telling everyone how awesome I am, if you want that, I'll send a PM. This thread is about people wrongly idetifying the reason for wiping. Sometimes, it is the healer. Most of the time though, its the DPS just not pulling their weight, or tunnel-visioning the name when they should be killing the adds because of low DPS. The longer something is alive, the more time there is for someone to miss an interupt, or for the adds to pile up.

    I've been in groups where we killed that countess (FC, bombs) before she dropped any bombs. I've now been in a group where she got to do it 7 times. One fo those fights ended quickly with no deaths. The other one ended slowly with 2 deaths due to bad gear. Go ahead and guess which one.
    I'M RIFTSTALKING YOUR MUM!

    I've found that Warriors are like Feminists. They want equality when it suits them, but the rest of the time they want to be treated special.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    To be honest, if the rogue was outputting low dps to begun with...

    Having anthem of fervor (allows you to spam more attacks/spells), fanfare of power or knowledge (increase for damage related stats for both your rogue/warriors or casters), motifs that buff both attack/spell power and physical/magical crit, and finishers that increase both physical and magical damage to the boss... oh and verse of joy (good for a little more spamming) may have actually improved the dps of everyone else in the party enough to bring up the dps as a whole (not to mention the extra health regen/damage reduction, and +5% to all healing effects on the whole party, which if you're able to single heal, the bard can go ahead and focus on dps while offering these enhancements for everyone else).

    That's what bards do. They enhance the damage/skills of every other class (including the healer's abilities). Even if the bard didn't offheal (because you had the heals covered), just using anthems, buffs, motifs and finishers between their attacks might have been enough added dps (for the rest of the group) to down the queen.

    Bard doesn't not always equate to "MORE HEALS"... sometimes it equates to improving the performance of everyone else in the group. Maybe the same could be said for chloro (I know very little about mages)?
    Last edited by ipxy; 05-30-2011 at 10:50 PM.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara DeadlySight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paikis View Post
    That's alot of arrogance to have come from just one person... are you some kind of hive mind?

    Pissing contest aside (blah blah, solo healed everything as well), how is the healer's fault/failing when there are just too many adds? How is it the healer's fault if the tank can't keep agro off the healer (I know you're a mage, Chloros generate alot of hate and you know it). How is it the healer's fault if you fail a DPS check?

    This thread isn't about me telling everyone how awesome I am, if you want that, I'll send a PM. This thread is about people wrongly idetifying the reason for wiping. Sometimes, it is the healer. Most of the time though, its the DPS just not pulling their weight, or tunnel-visioning the name when they should be killing the adds because of low DPS. The longer something is alive, the more time there is for someone to miss an interupt, or for the adds to pile up.

    I've been in groups where we killed that countess (FC, bombs) before she dropped any bombs. I've now been in a group where she got to do it 7 times. One fo those fights ended quickly with no deaths. The other one ended slowly with 2 deaths due to bad gear. Go ahead and guess which one.
    While it might be alot of arrogance it's also 100% fact.
    You say blahblah DPS fail. It might be a DPS fail but alot of healers that are failing like to place blame on the DPS. As the poster above pointed out; if a 300 dps rogue wants to flip bard you should probably let him. If a 900 DPS rogue wants to flip... Well he was doing 900 DPS and it WASN'T a DPS problem it was a healing problem.

    You see where this is going? Either the rogue is such bad DPS you SHOULD have him flip bard or his DPS is high enough it's YOUR problem and he NEEDS to flip bard


    Sometimes the truth comes off as arrogance and mean.
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  7. #7
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    You can usually deal with two bad players, but three will just be wipe fest. Unfortunately I seem to be getting three lately. There are very few dps check bosses, before they were nerfed my group did 3 healers on the hard bosses just to get through them.
    bird in cage
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    They play you like a stupid bird.
    Unfortunately that has been MMO standard operating procedure since EQ.

  8. #8
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    My cleric is only into T1s atm, but so far it really has been annoying when DPS focus bosses instead of nuking down adds, like on first boss of KB. I can deal with 4-6 wolves but they just keep letting them pile up and eventually between the AOE dmg and the wolves on tank I just lose people. Maybe remedied by more gear but doubt it.

    (Gear)

  9. #9
    Era
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adnoz View Post
    My cleric is only into T1s atm, but so far it really has been annoying when DPS focus bosses instead of nuking down adds, like on first boss of KB. I can deal with 4-6 wolves but they just keep letting them pile up and eventually between the AOE dmg and the wolves on tank I just lose people. Maybe remedied by more gear but doubt it.
    Eventually the damage becomes enough for the tank to be one-shotted. Had this happen on xFC a couple times with the spiders. The DoT is also painful when I'm busy trying to keep the tank up...and we eventually wiped because of spiders. Next attempt...more AoE and the boss went down.

    Guess it takes a couple tries especially for people who haven't really played in T1s before.
    Era - Defiant - Byriel
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  10. #10
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    Its a world where you are not wrong everyone else is.

    Without understanding the mechanics of each role, its forever a argument of who was wrong, and usually the complainer is the one thats in fact incorrect.

    However, in terms of instance runs, a DPS without an AOE spec is a fail DPS

    and sometimes if a healer can't heal, its the Tanks fault for being low geared or not using skills correctly, and/or DPS being fail at purging, CCing or anything useful that they could bring but don't.

    It still makes me laugh that stupid DPS don't purge a shield then kill themselves on it, and then rant for heals

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Larloch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlySight View Post
    as a geared out mage I strongly disagree. When I'm pulling well over 1k ST Dps and we wipe I'll shrug it off. 2nd wipe and I force the cleric/other mage w/e to DPS and I'll solo heal it. I can/have Solo healed/duod almost every boss in T1/T2. It takes forever but if I'm chloro I KNOW we won't wipe even if all 3 DPS are terrible and find ways to get themselves killed.

    I guess the difference is I won't "ask" if you need help healing. If we wipe twice that's it, you're done attempting to heal my T2
    If you can heal through fights while everyone ignores the mechanics, you're outgearing the content or Chloros are simply OP. WoW ran into this problem in Wrath of the Lich King-- fight mechanics were trivial and ignored by everyone. If the group wiped, it was the healer's fault. This is poor design-- why have fight mechanics if they can be safely healed through? Cataclysm attempted to fix this by nerfing healing and making void zones and certain mechanics 1-shot a group-- it didn't take long before people stopped blaming the healers and started blaming the mouth-breathing DPS that couldn't see the giant glowing green puddle of ooze they were standing in, or didn't know their rotation/class enough to beat an enrage timer.

    Congratulations on healing everything in the game and carrying groups no matter how bad they are, but this isn't a game's intended design.
    Last edited by Larloch; 05-31-2011 at 02:28 AM.

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara DeadlySight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larloch View Post
    If you can heal through fights while everyone ignores the mechanics, you're outgearing the content or Chloros are simply OP. WoW ran into this problem in Wrath of the Lich King-- fight mechanics were trivial and ignored by everyone. If the group wiped, it was the healer's fault. This is poor design-- why have fight mechanics if they can be safely healed through? Cataclysm attempted to fix this by nerfing healing and making void zones and certain mechanics 1-shot a group-- it didn't take long before people stopped blaming the healers and started blaming the mouth-breathing DPS that couldn't see the giant glowing green puddle of ooze they were standing in, or didn't know their rotation/class enough to beat an enrage timer.

    Congratulations on healing everything in the game and carrying groups no matter how bad they are, but this isn't a game's intended design.
    Yeah, it might not be intended but it's the way it is atm, ex: xAP. I've run xAP so many times trying for my Glob it makes my head hurt thinking about it and it's gotten so boring on the last boss my tank now purposely tries to die, he stands in lasers/ground ae getting stoned/etc. We never wipe but with him attempting to die it actually makes me try.

    Thinking about it now it's kind of sad the only way I have to try is with that scenario
    Lee Trevino, on why he has never had a golf coach: "When I find one who can beat me, I'll listen."

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    I was in a 5-man Pug yesterday, I fill the support slot so I specced Chloro/Archon. We had trouble on a boss that was healing himself as fast as we could damage him. I changed to Necro/Lock, kept the heal debuff up and we downed him easily.

    It really is about the group. Many times people feel that the support role needs to be an off-healer. That may be true in some encounters, but often more dps is the answer.
    I am a lawyer in real life, but I try to roleplay an honorable character ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adnoz View Post
    My cleric is only into T1s atm, but so far it really has been annoying when DPS focus bosses instead of nuking down adds, like on first boss of KB. I can deal with 4-6 wolves but they just keep letting them pile up and eventually between the AOE dmg and the wolves on tank I just lose people. Maybe remedied by more gear but doubt it.
    those wolves die to even iincidental aoe damage. Besides, if you had a bard, he could be helping you healhtru the wolves, and be the one throwing the incidental aoe to kill them, dunno, that fight in particular is way easier with bard in group.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    ppl still run t1 and 2's??

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