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Thread: Cleric and Fighter DPS roles/souls

  1. #1
    Rift Master Cazwal's Avatar
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    Default Cleric and Fighter DPS roles/souls

    This topic may be divisive between purists and modern players but here goes ;P

    How successful should players in the fighter and cleric archetypes be at DPS if they configure their characters appropriately (and if the options exist to really be successful at DPS at all?) One model I’ve seen has DPS “spec’d” Tanks or Healers being dead space in a raid, unable to contribute to the point that the player would be sat out if a fight surfaced where you needed to shift the raid balance (e.g. pull out healers for pure DPS.) The other model (WoW) gives every “archtype” a functional DPS spec that they can toggle to if the raid no longer needs that third tank or seventh healer.

    I’ve had to lead raids where the former model where even dps spec’d a fighter archtype could barely do 50% of the damage of a pure damage dealer leading me to sit great players for inferior ones because the encounter demanded it. Healers similarly are easily cut out of raid groups in some games because you need to make an enrage timer and “off-spec” doesn’t give them enough damage to cover that spot. The raid leader in me wants to see a model where I have the flexibility with my team to switch a fighter to a dps spot and not automatically fail.

    Finally, having played a healer and a tank (and DPS) it really is nice once content is on farm to let healers or tanks have a “night off” to just DPS instead of the stress of tanking or healing. As a raid leader it’s something I enjoy being able to offer to those players who really can be the key to success so very often.

    My solutions:

    1 – Have the “off spec” easy to access during raids so that if one encounter needs 3 tanks and another needs 1, the other two tanks can switch to a dps “soul” easily enough.

    2 – Have the “off spec” DPS be “enough” to get the job done without stepping on the toes of pure DPS players too badly. For example, a fighter DPS spec may reach 90% of a scouts. This is enough to keep the fighter in, but not enough to have a raid full of fighters.

    3 – (Worst approach IMHO) Design all fights to require x healers, y tanks and z DPS.

    I have a very broad perspective on this having played all the archetypes and leading raids in a fairly competitive setting. I realize DPS players hate it when a healer can respec and do good damage – but I really think that’s a very narrow view to take.

    We haven't seen enough of the soul system details to see if this will resolve itself but I really hope it does.

    Fire away!

    Last edited by Cazwal; 08-11-2010 at 05:05 AM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    I think raids are the worst example to use for class balance, the reason why is that raids are all about min maxing, who can absorb the most damage, who can heal the most, who can deal the most damage. That's how useful you are in the raid.


    If they add enough support/CC in the game, then a tank that can tank but that can also debuff the mob or buff surrounding players might be as useful as a tank that can absorb the most damage. If the classes/souls are really focused on either dps/heal/tank then, forget it, people will start min/maxing builds like crazy and this kills it because then the devs will have to implement dual builds so that people who enjoy their 1/2 tank 1/2 dps in pvp and solo and whatever else they do with that build can have a pure tank or pure dps build for the raids.


    I'm not a fan of raids because it's too focused on min/maxing, I understand they are needed but, not a fan of raids in a trinity system.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched endscape's Avatar
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    For your number 3 solution, it's not really the devs that design the fights this way, its once the guild post their strategies for killing a certain boss it is then that all the other guilds will start copying their setup with 2 Tanks, 5 Healers, 5 DPS and so on and so forth. It is a trend that will exist no matter which MMO you play for the harder raid dungeons and bosses.

  4. #4
    Rift Master Cazwal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by endscape View Post
    For your number 3 solution, it's not really the devs that design the fights this way, its once the guild post their strategies for killing a certain boss it is then that all the other guilds will start copying their setup with 2 Tanks, 5 Healers, 5 DPS and so on and so forth. It is a trend that will exist no matter which MMO you play for the harder raid dungeons and bosses.
    Generally agree with you here, though developers can influence the direction a bit. For example a boss that requires tanks to taunt back and forth to handle a stacking debuff sets the tank floor at 2. Generally though raiders will quickly figure out the class balance solution which is why it is important that certain people aren't "left on the bench" because a fight doesn't need them. I don't think my "option 3" is really feasible which is why classes need to have some built in flexibility IMHO to swap roles efficiently and effectively.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    As a non-raider I would like my cleric to be able to deal at least acceptable damage to get things dead when playing alone and to contribute in easy group fights without loosing to badly on healing abilities. Still, clerics are clerics and in full DPS spec I do not see them above 75% of a pure DPS class.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple Xilith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunGirl View Post
    As a non-raider I would like my cleric to be able to deal at least acceptable damage to get things dead when playing alone and to contribute in easy group fights without loosing to badly on healing abilities. Still, clerics are clerics and in full DPS spec I do not see them above 75% of a pure DPS class.
    At least having access to multiple specs helps with this. You can have a healing, raid dps, and solo spec to swap between.

  7. #7
    General of Telara aahingenuity's Avatar
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    I didn't have a problem with this in WoW (I was a shadow priest), I'm not to sure about the problem but I'm curious of how cleric multi-classing will work out. I mean, if you have healing gear, how will you do any good at doing damage as an inquisitor (assuming that's how the gear is, being separated as damage, healing and tanking gear)? I see no point in having part of a dps class if you can't generate good damage for it to matter.

    I think it may be a problem if the gear isn't like how WoW changed it (Spell Power only, meaning it helps healing spells and damage spells). Like SunGirl said, I would like to deal at least acceptable damage while healing.
    Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.

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