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Thread: People's thoughts on a summoning class?

  1. #1
    Shadowlander Arilithill's Avatar
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    Question People's thoughts on a summoning class?

    I haven't seen anything (I may not be exhausting all resources, mind you) about a summoning class. I have always liked summoners, even though they usually don't amount to anything great. I have always thought the idea behind it was cool, especially for an "evil" feeling. For instance, necromancers from Diablo II. I always thought it was creepy - and cool - that he would slay his foes, then essentially rip their skeletons out and use them to "recruit" more bodies.

    I was OK with the Warlock in WoW, but it didn't give me the same feeling. The Death Knight (first release) was closer to a summoner than the Warlock, but then they changed that and made it not as viable.

    Anyways, has anyone heard/seen anything that suggests a summoning class in Rift? If there are none, let's brainstorm some ideas:
    - How would they work?
    - Main source of energy?
    - Faction-choice?
    -This could then lead to, if it's one Faction only, would/could there be an opposing faction choice?
    - Spells?
    - Different summons
    - DoT's or nukes?
    - Armor
    - Weapon

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Mirander's Avatar
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    You might want to take a look at the Elementalist class

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    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
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    There is already a summoning class listed on the main website. It is one of two mage classes revealed thus far.

    All mages use the same energy "mechanic" so that is already settled. As far as faction choice, factions do share many classes. I believe the Elementalist is one of them. Of course, there may be faction specific summoners that haven't been revealed yet as well. There are plenty of ways to imagine one since Defiant use technology and Guardians use spiritual magics. It just comes down to balance and gameplay.

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    Shadowlander Arilithill's Avatar
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    Yeah I had seen that, and I thought that was at least nice for a summoning class, I guess I am hoping for more of a darker sort of summoning, like from the bodies of the dead and all that. Not that I am some kind of emo ;) or anything. Just always thought it was cool.

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    Rift Chaser Slacka's Avatar
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    Would be very surprised if we don't see some form of Necromancer class too, seeing as the game is based on coming back from the dead and involves an invasion from the plane of death. As such I cant imagine that no mage as a result didn't try to control some dead

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    Plane Walker Vembumees87's Avatar
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    If there will be a necromancer class similiar to diablo 2, then definitely going for a necromancer instead. Being damn weak, but summoning a gang of skeleton warriors and mages by your side would be god damn awesome!

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    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
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    When I see talk about a summoning class I always get reminded of this old RPG I played called: "Summoner" as good as I can recall it I think it had two games released under that banner. It had a lot of pet / creature summonings involved and was quite nice for a game of such day and age.

    While I don't like the pet systems in most games that one did it quite well, I think it had mostly to do with good AI for those days. Summoner soul sounds like a good idea but like others mentioned mixing and matching Elementalist + Necromancer could already come close depending on their implementation

    Regards,
    Kalbuir

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    Telaran
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    The problem with a summoning class is the balance between pets and spells, let me explain: (Keep in mind that the idea of pets is that they are automated or have an AI of some kind, it's not that you control them too much, otherwise it becomes more like shapeshifting)

    A) Summoning class has a lot of pets that he can summon at once, very little castable spells: the player doesn't need any skill, summon a bunch of pets, roll over stuff.

    B) Summoning class has medium amount of pets/1 strong pet and he can cast some spells, the balance between pets and available spells, either 1 becomes more powerful then the other and the other side of the coin looks weak and then summoners complain ("my pet is too weak compared to my spells, it's not worth even summoning him, why am i a summoner?" or "my pet is so strong that I don't even want to cast spells, they barely do any dmg, i'm just going to go afk and let him do the work")

    C) Summmoning class has very little pets or a weak pet and lots of spells/powerful spells, once again, the summoner doesn't feel like a summoner: "I'm gonna go reroll as a wizard***"
    ***wizard is any casting class that doesn't have pets

    So that's the issue, I think the ideal world for a summoner is that instead of long duration pets like most MMOs make it is you have a lot of short duration pets, think 5-20 seconds and with talents/points into your soul it can get adjusted to more dmg/more duration/less duration/more pets. You make a variety of pets available to the summoner and make them situational, now the summoner doesn't feel like a caster since he's summoning pets constantly but he doesn't have a companion all the time, which some summoners might think it sucks, so you give summoners a weak-ish familiar that gives a passive bonus (think EQ2's wizard familiar) which gives crit% spell haste, pet dmg increase, spell leach, etc.

    That would be a class I would play.

    P.S. DaoC had an awesome pet class, forget the name, but the summoner from DaoC had like 9 pets out at once, was freaking awesome.

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    Ascendant Elladar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vembumees87 View Post
    If there will be a necromancer class similiar to diablo 2, then definitely going for a necromancer instead. Being damn weak, but summoning a gang of skeleton warriors and mages by your side would be god damn awesome!
    Welcome brother! We must stick together, as these foolish mortals do not understand the greatness of Necromancy!

    - How would they work? - Just like a normal mage.
    - Main source of energy? - Mana, possibly some "Dark" form of mana| Life Energy of the victim.
    - Faction-choice? - Defiant. Guardians should have something like Anti-Necromancer with holy powers and crap like that, for which I obviously dotn care...
    - Spells? - High repertoire of different spells. Most of which are "Dark|Shadow" type of spells
    - Different summons - A ton of sceletons|zombies|abominations to choose from.
    - DoT's or nukes? - Dots
    - Armor - Cloth
    - Weapon - Scythe of Necromancer. With red glowing blade, and dark glowing butterflies circling around the blade.
    I don't need to "Get a life."! I'm a Gamer! I have loads of Lifes! - - - Necromancy - happiness is an army of unstoppable, loyal, killing machines.

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    Shadowlander Arilithill's Avatar
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    I agree with what was said above that the necromancer should have short duration pets that last 5-20 seconds with little to no offensive skills. That would make them more Diablo II-ish, which would be ok with me!

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by xWudek View Post
    (Keep in mind that the idea of pets is that they are automated or have an AI of some kind, it's not that you control them too much, otherwise it becomes more like shapeshifting)
    No it does not. Playing a summoner class should mean playing a class with a lot of micro management (meaning, control of the pet mostly). Pet only needs a pathfinder AI, nothing more (no it does not have to attack if you are attacked, it can just stand there and watch).

    Quote Originally Posted by xWudek View Post
    A) Summoning class has a lot of pets that he can summon at once, very little castable spells: the player doesn't need any skill, summon a bunch of pets, roll over stuff.
    Didn't hellgate:London do this? But the pets were not controled by the player at all there (from what I red). This is not a class I would ever want to play (and I love summoners). There is no fun in just watching your automated armee fight on it's own.

    Quote Originally Posted by xWudek View Post
    B) Summoning class has medium amount of pets/1 strong pet and he can cast some spells, the balance between pets and available spells, either 1 becomes more powerful then the other and the other side of the coin looks weak and then summoners complain ("my pet is too weak compared to my spells, it's not worth even summoning him, why am i a summoner?" or "my pet is so strong that I don't even want to cast spells, they barely do any dmg, i'm just going to go afk and let him do the work")
    Rift seams to have this kind of summoner. The balance is not clear yet, but I really hope that we will end up with one very strong pet and no, or really limited attack magic (buffs and heals are welcome though). If the pet has no AI (other than pathfinding), playing this class will not become boring - also remember that you can get as many attack spells as you want from your second soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by xWudek View Post
    So that's the issue, I think the ideal world for a summoner is that instead of long duration pets like most MMOs make it is you have a lot of short duration pets, think 5-20 seconds and with talents/points into your soul it can get adjusted to more dmg/more duration/less duration/more pets. You make a variety of pets available to the summoner and make them situational, now the summoner doesn't feel like a caster since he's summoning pets constantly but he doesn't have a companion all the time, which some summoners might think it sucks, so you give summoners a weak-ish familiar that gives a passive bonus (think EQ2's wizard familiar) which gives crit% spell haste, pet dmg increase, spell leach, etc.
    You are wrong, the summoner still wont feal like a summoner, it will feal like a "spirit spammer". Summoners want to have their pets by their side all the time, having them dissapear after a few seconds is just annoying in the long run. Such fire and forget pets do not make a pet class.

    The summoner class for this game should be so simple though.
    - 4 possible summons (based on the 4 elements)
    - 1 summon at a time
    - summoned creature has 90+% of the class's damage output
    - summoned creature has limited AI (no auto attack on damage, ect)
    - no attack magic of any kind for the caster (pets can have magic skills)
    - summoner can heal his pet (and himself, but just slowly)
    - summoner can buff his pet (long term buffs mostly, short term ones are annoying and a bot magnet)

    There you have it, a pure pet class, easy to balance.

    I do know that many would want their summoner to be able to do some damage too, but that's what your second and third souls are for.

    One important thing to note though: in order to get the strong pets (for your level), you should have to spend most your points in the summoner calling (so, only a few points will not get you anything fancy), this is to avoid having all mage classes run around with a pet, ending up in a huge nerf hammer for the pure summoners.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander Arilithill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azren View Post

    One important thing to note though: in order to get the strong pets (for your level), you should have to spend most your points in the summoner calling (so, only a few points will not get you anything fancy), this is to avoid having all mage classes run around with a pet, ending up in a huge nerf hammer for the pure summoners.
    I agree with the necessity to put most points into the summoning tree. Because you are right, it would just be mages with pets.

    My idea for a summoning class though is more necromancer than elementalist.

    Having to slay enemies first, or using the bodies of the deceased, before becoming lethal. This would require at least some sort of offensive skill set, even if it's one or two options.

  13. #13
    Champion Evolution's Avatar
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    For some reason most fantasy MMO games summoning classes are always healers, now I don't mind healers summoning at all, but any magic class, Warlock ect ect should be able to summon also, or at least have the option to learn the skill

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azren View Post
    You are wrong.
    I really love this part of your reply. You do know it's called an opinion, much like yours, doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong or vice versa. It's just an opinion, blatantly saying I'm wrong is ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azren View Post
    No it does not. Playing a summoner class should mean playing a class with a lot of micro management (meaning, control of the pet mostly). Pet only needs a pathfinder AI, nothing more (no it does not have to attack if you are attacked, it can just stand there and watch).



    Didn't hellgate:London do this? But the pets were not controled by the player at all there (from what I red). This is not a class I would ever want to play (and I love summoners). There is no fun in just watching your automated armee fight on it's own.



    Rift seams to have this kind of summoner. The balance is not clear yet, but I really hope that we will end up with one very strong pet and no, or really limited attack magic (buffs and heals are welcome though). If the pet has no AI (other than pathfinding), playing this class will not become boring - also remember that you can get as many attack spells as you want from your second soul.



    You are wrong, the summoner still wont feal like a summoner, it will feal like a "spirit spammer". Summoners want to have their pets by their side all the time, having them dissapear after a few seconds is just annoying in the long run. Such fire and forget pets do not make a pet class.

    The summoner class for this game should be so simple though.
    - 4 possible summons (based on the 4 elements)
    - 1 summon at a time
    - summoned creature has 90+% of the class's damage output
    - summoned creature has limited AI (no auto attack on damage, ect)
    - no attack magic of any kind for the caster (pets can have magic skills)
    - summoner can heal his pet (and himself, but just slowly)
    - summoner can buff his pet (long term buffs mostly, short term ones are annoying and a bot magnet)

    There you have it, a pure pet class, easy to balance.

    I do know that many would want their summoner to be able to do some damage too, but that's what your second and third souls are for.

    One important thing to note though: in order to get the strong pets (for your level), you should have to spend most your points in the summoner calling (so, only a few points will not get you anything fancy), this is to avoid having all mage classes run around with a pet, ending up in a huge nerf hammer for the pure summoners.
    Anyway, onto your idea of a summoner, what I think is "wrong":
    -If your pet does 90% dmg, is that with or without buffs, with your long term buffs, he becomes what 100% dmg compared to other dps classes? or 100% or is that with buffs? If it's with buffs that he's 90% dps, then ure making a class that is designed to be less effective at dps than other dps classes with no CC, no heals, no tanking beyond the pet.
    -If you have no spells beside pet buffs, pet summons and pet heals, what exactly are you? you just summon a pet and control him. What difference does this have with just being a paladin (a class that can heal himself and buff himself) or any other self-heal/self-buff class?
    -By putting out 1 long duration pet at a time with long duration buffs, you are taking out any strategy or skill involved with the class. It's like summon, buff, buff, buff, attack with pet with pet abilities.

    Now you are going to say "No wait, you can have other souls to diversify and make your actual character useful", but that will make your pet weaker, the more powerful you want your character, the weaker your pet will be, the less you'll want to have him or you go the other way and go only with summoner and then we're back to square one.

    Before you bash me about how I bashed your opinion, just sit back for 30 seconds, and really look at the result you would have with your implementation.

    Okay, now take another 30 seconds and think about the situation where you have fully AI'd pets which are very situational, one pet is a rooter, one is a mezzer, one is a dps, one is a stunner, one is ahealer, one is a pbaoe dmg, one is a ...etc. They have durations and cooldowns and cast times, your job in any fight is to determine the combination and order of summoning these short duration pets for the best outcome. This is more of a summoner to me, maybe you can even have a long duration pet which goes in category tank/dmg/heal so that you feel like a summoner but really your full power comes with your short duration pets; think division into fire/water/air/earth and for example fire could have : djinn, imp, fire elemental and each are a little different. 3 pets per elemental type, 4 elemental types = 12 short duration pets and your long duration familiar. Awesome.

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Vembumees87's Avatar
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    1 pet would only be for sissy beastmasters and mages, necromancers should be able to summon multiple of reanimations and undead from the corpses it has destroyed. Well, diablo 2 system was already quite balanced enough, I don't see how it would be hard to balance it. If you want more pets, you sacrifice their damage/hp. If you want less pets, you get stronger pets. If you want pets and spells, you sacrifice summoner endtier pets. Easy. 20 second duration is ridiculous, 1 minute is good if you don't have summoning requirements. But consider that for summoning the undead you also need to have corpses. Guild Wars necromancer was also pretty good, except the pets, you more points you put into summoning the stronger they were, the more pets you got and the longer duration they had. It was very balanced, fun, you could summon lots of pets. Only problem was to actually kill the first mob in the higher levels to get the first reanimation summoned.
    Last edited by Vembumees87; 08-12-2010 at 07:02 AM.

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