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Thread: 1.3 -- survivability buff for warriors in pvp?

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    Banned Sawdomite's Avatar
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    Default 1.3 -- survivability buff for warriors in pvp?

    Whenever people get into argument threads about buffing warriors, inevitably it boils down not to whether or not they should receive some upward adjustments for pvp, but that they should not because it will affect pve. The balance of pve and pvp need not be mutually exclusive by any means, at they very least for warriors at present.

    By simply getting rid of SLI, replacing it with a better ability in the paragon tree (which would make it competitive to the "other" dps "specs"), scaling up warrior damage to compensate for the loss of SLI, and giving warriors more survivability, very possibly no imbalances would be created. We do not more burst, mobility, or CC. Just more survivability. We need more health and out-right mitigation. Whether in a couple passive talents here or there or through several abilties with cooldowns, it's just needed one way or another.

    Warriors are a front-line class, can deal front-line damage (with a couple qualifications), but do not have the survivability for it (even with damage-tank soul hybrids). Their job is to be up front, in people's faces, forcing people's hands, and applying real pressure, steering the head of a battle to whom they decide to attack. Right now you need P6 and a cleric or two to do that against any competent team.

    Whenever you start dealing damage and get in on someone, you get focus fired to death in seconds. The moment you start taking out a healer, carrier, etc., any half-way decent group will just burn you down. And there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

    Sure, if you're running "that" build in pvp, and have a solid 2her and some endurance, you will almost always take someone out before they die--if they aren't being healed too. Especially with "that" build, especially when your procs go up and Proper Timing's up, it's a sure thing you'll smash someone who isn't getting the same support you are. It's not hard to do it reguarly--if you're being healed all the time.

    Aside the limitation presented by SLI (the damage crutch that it is), there's generally nothing wrong with our class except that we really have no way to keep ourselves alive. We're just damn squishy for what our role is. We have no heals and only 20m on any ranged spell, of which we have comparatively very few. That would be just fine if we had some things that the other classes get access to: innate damage reduction, escape mechanisms, damage immunity spells, etc.

    With tools like that, the plate armor and higher health values would actually mean something and give the warrior a genuine role in pvp without breaking pve. It'd give warriors a unique purpose, being able to take more punishment and stick on people to apply pressure and force people's strategies into reacting to yours.

    We can't just come up and blow someone up unless they have no support--and how often have we read lately that that's totally fair?--yet we can't survive without disproportionate healing support for ourselves.

    Trion is clearly maintaining the typical front-line, smash-mouth archetype for warrior. However, we've only been given part of what we need to do that job. We have some decent damage, and we've got ways to get into melee range. We got by pretty well in 1.1 still because CC was very powerful, but now we no longer have the ability to glue ourselves to targets and disrupt them so often. Because of that, the crutch that SLI is becomes very apparent and our dependence shifts from our own to CC to another player (healing).

    If we had survivability, our damage would be less potential and more actual; we wouldn't be gimped by the DR system; and we wouldn't need to have superior gear and more healing to compete with other callings. We'd be able to make an impact in pvp regardless of gear levels and in legitimately competitive pvp, not just pugs and duels. And of course, more survivability within offensive souls wouldn't make us overpowered in pve by any stretch of the imagination.

  2. #2
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    Right now Warriors are a joke, not because they can't damage or soak, because you can easily get distance from them -so easily in fact they become a non issue.

    Ranged is the name of the game and high burst melee rogues. At least Rogues can do some nice burst then die -warriors just die haha.

    PvP wise I like how the tank souls play -Warrior- if only the developers would give Champion -deep Champion at least +29- s way to regen HP.

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    The biggest problem with warriors are SLI atm. Without it, clerics do more dps than warriors. With it warriors get just above clerics.
    Sacrifising a soul just to do more dps than the strongest defensive soul in the game, tho dw even with sli dont as much dps as clerics, are a really bad tradeoff. To do that kind of dmg warriors have to sac. defence, while the other dps classes dont have to.
    Fixing SLI would make warriors being able to pack more defence or utility, and overall preform better.

    Second biggest problem are staying on the target. The paragon speedbuff got a to long cd imo. 30 sec would be fair with the current duration. Could move it to paladin, so all the utility were on the tank souls.
    Reavers Weakning Essense, which is a skill i really love the concept of, is terrible.
    Its high in the reaver tree, it got a duration for 15 sec and have a cd for 2 min. Move it futher down in the reaver tree, so its easyer to get, reduce the cd to 30 sec and this would be skill you want to take.
    Adding more utility to the tank souls would make them more attractive, even needed to do good dps in pvp.
    But its pointless to fix this problem without fixing SLI first.

    The warrior pvp tree is horrible and needs to be reworked. Atm i can find 2-3 skills thats decent, and only decent, not good, but all the crap you have to spec into to get those talents arnt worth it.

    So overall...
    - Remove SLI and buff warriors dmg
    - Buff tanks utility, including speedbuffs
    - Delete the warrior pvp tree and start over

    This arnt a total fix, but it will make warriors alot more attractive to play in PvP, aswell as PvE, even tho warriors tradional are tanks in PvE.

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    Warriors are a perfectly fine pvp class - the spec and ability of the player is something that shows with a warrior though.

    If you are a 2 handed 3 offense souls charge'n'spam warrior who thinks running headfirst into 6 people is the way to play then you will be useless, die a lot and complain.

    Look at the scoresheets. Ask those warriors in the 20+ kill and 1-2 deaths bracket their spec and tactics. A good warrior in a WF is lethal.

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    Plane Walker Calcifer's Avatar
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    Please dont forget how horrible warriors scale with gear, its a real issue imo.

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    Most Warriors are pushing close to 7k with "that build" aka, Vk/Champ/Paragon build that all the Rank 6 warriors are running now.

    This gives them pretty decent survivability and lets ya kill people, Esp if you're getting Heals.

    Problem is Warriors don't want to rely on healers in pvp, and generally speaking, having played Melee Based classes in pretty much every game up until now, You're not going to ever be able to do that.

    The Second you don't have to rely on healers in pvp anymore, Is the second Warriors become the only class you should play in PvP.

    So while warriors do well in 1v1, and do well when they have healers, like every other game before, If ya don't have heals and rush into the middle of the enemy, you're pretty much screwed if they focus fire you.

    That's just how Warriors play..
    Xsorus - Rank 8 Mage/Server Seastone/Guardian/Guild - Desolate

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    Healers are the only class that don't need to rely on healers in this game - its not a warrior specific thing.

    Pvp101 - healers win matches.

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    Shield of Telara kidbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    Most Warriors are pushing close to 7k with "that build" aka, Vk/Champ/Paragon build that all the Rank 6 warriors are running now.

    This gives them pretty decent survivability and lets ya kill people, Esp if you're getting Heals.

    Problem is Warriors don't want to rely on healers in pvp, and generally speaking, having played Melee Based classes in pretty much every game up until now, You're not going to ever be able to do that.

    The Second you don't have to rely on healers in pvp anymore, Is the second Warriors become the only class you should play in PvP.

    So while warriors do well in 1v1, and do well when they have healers, like every other game before, If ya don't have heals and rush into the middle of the enemy, you're pretty much screwed if they focus fire you.

    That's just how Warriors play..
    I agree with everything that you've just said.
    Bokor - Cleric (Warrior Priest)

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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    Most Warriors are pushing close to 7k with "that build" aka, Vk/Champ/Paragon build that all the Rank 6 warriors are running now.

    This gives them pretty decent survivability and lets ya kill people, Esp if you're getting Heals.

    Problem is Warriors don't want to rely on healers in pvp, and generally speaking, having played Melee Based classes in pretty much every game up until now, You're not going to ever be able to do that.

    The Second you don't have to rely on healers in pvp anymore, Is the second Warriors become the only class you should play in PvP.

    So while warriors do well in 1v1, and do well when they have healers, like every other game before, If ya don't have heals and rush into the middle of the enemy, you're pretty much screwed if they focus fire you.

    That's just how Warriors play..
    Preach it like it is muh brutha.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    Healers are the only class that don't need to rely on healers in this game - its not a warrior specific thing.

    Pvp101 - healers win matches.
    While all classes rely on healers to some extent, even Clerics (try playing a Shaman/Justicar in pvp or any of the melee souls and you'll see what i mean)

    Warriors tend to rely on them in fights in which they have to rush in and could potentially be focus fired.

    Clerics/Rogues have abilities that let them go immune, Basically because I can instant gib both of those classes as a Mage, I can't do that against Warriors.

    What the OP is basically asking for, is for Warriors to not rely on them when they rush into a pack of players, Which i have to tell you, will never happen in this game...or any game for that matter.
    Xsorus - Rank 8 Mage/Server Seastone/Guardian/Guild - Desolate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    Healers are the only class that don't need to rely on healers in this game - its not a warrior specific thing.

    Pvp101 - healers win matches.
    Ah you are correct however, what calling doesn't have any option to heal in any of the souls?

    Bingo.

    That's why Warriors should have both an increase in suvivability and damage.

    I'm with the OP. Remove SLI, buff all Warrior dps 25%, and for the love of god, make dual wielding worth a damn.

    And since I'm feeling greedy, purge the Warrior PvP tree with fire, and start over, it's terrible.
    Last edited by Crackbome; 05-24-2011 at 06:16 AM.

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    Ascendant Sorovos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crackbome View Post
    Ah you are correct however, what calling doesn't have any option to heal in any of the souls?

    Bingo.

    That's why Warriors should have both an increase in suvivability and damage.

    I'm with the OP. Remove SLI, buff all Warrior dps 25%, and for the love of god, make dual wielding worth a damn.

    And since I'm feeling greedy, purge the Warrior PvP tree with fire, and start over, it's terrible.
    Like I said before, what you're asking for will never happen, You will always have to rely on a healer charging packs of players to do damage.

    That's how melee work my friend.

    Increasing your damage/survivability so you don't require heals would basically mean no other class is playable.

    If you want a build that relies LESS on heals, and lets you stay in the fight VK/Reaver/RB builds are basically your only option.

    But you will always need heals when playing a melee class.

    this should be common knowledge for anyone who's ever play an MMO.
    Xsorus - Rank 8 Mage/Server Seastone/Guardian/Guild - Desolate

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    Imo its not about whether or not warriors needs heals, OFC THEY DO.
    But have to relay on staying alive for atleast 10 sec for killing anything, in a game where 3 sec of focused fire from any mage will kill you, rogues that can shot you from far away without any downtime, and in a game where warriors got the shortest ranged abilities, and it doesnt matter if it gap closers, range dmg or an out of combat res. They all got the same range 20 meters.
    This game feels like trying to invade the Normandy when you play as warrior.

    And with 99% of all clerics playing dps in pvp, even the ones screaming how horrible all the players on the team are, tho there are 2 healers for 20 ppl, can you really blame warriors for wanting some kind of way to survive more than 3 sec, when no one seems to care for them?
    I would have no prob with my current survivability, if clerics couldnt do dmg, but they can and they do, and there for i dont get any heals. Thats ofc only when pugging.
    Can i do anything to change that? Not as warrior. I cant force ppl to play healer, but as a warrior i only have one option, DO BIG DMG. And to be honest... Its not that big dmg warriors can produce.
    I cant change role to help out the team by playing healer, ranged dps, support or anything else. At best i can role VK and play annoy some mage or cleric. The key word here is annoy, not destroy. And still have to hope he wont target me from 30 m away and have me killed before i get within 20 m of him.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    Most Warriors are pushing close to 7k with "that build" aka, Vk/Champ/Paragon build that all the Rank 6 warriors are running now.

    This gives them pretty decent survivability and lets ya kill people, Esp if you're getting Heals.

    Problem is Warriors don't want to rely on healers in pvp, and generally speaking, having played Melee Based classes in pretty much every game up until now, You're not going to ever be able to do that.

    The Second you don't have to rely on healers in pvp anymore, Is the second Warriors become the only class you should play in PvP.

    So while warriors do well in 1v1, and do well when they have healers, like every other game before, If ya don't have heals and rush into the middle of the enemy, you're pretty much screwed if they focus fire you.

    That's just how Warriors play..

    I agree with some of what you say, however the problem is that not every warrior is R6 with 7k health and a T2+/R6 weapon. I'm personally at R3 with an epic crafted 2hander and my survivability/dmg is nowhere near that of my other friends and guildies that I play with at similar gear levels and prestige ranks.

    Does every other class have to grind to 50 then R6 for decent survivability/playability? I personally don't think so, and I think that is a rather extreme requirement to feel like being on a similar playing field to the other classes. When I WF I feel like the grunt who has to run across no man's land just praying that the range war ignores him and tries to make a difference for my team.

    I understand support, getting the hell out when things are going bad and trying to use all your abilities (i run CHA/VK/Par and do the fearing/ae heal debuffs/buff stripping). I've played massives since EQ and almost all the ones after and have always been apart of the PVP. I know I'm not the best PVP'r in the world but I've always atleast held my own in other games. Then I come to RIFT and have never played a class that I felt was hands down weaker and brought less to the table than every other class.

    Warriors aren't asking to be self contained world beaters. Just a bit of equality in this terrible CC DR ranged war game (until R6 I guess) cause from what I see any other class with the same level of support can accomplish more than a warrior. I also think any of these badass R6 warriors I hear about would also run train with any other calling.
    Last edited by FuriousN1k; 05-24-2011 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorovos View Post
    Most Warriors are pushing close to 7k with "that build" aka, Vk/Champ/Paragon build that all the Rank 6 warriors are running now.

    This gives them pretty decent survivability and lets ya kill people, Esp if you're getting Heals.

    Problem is Warriors don't want to rely on healers in pvp, and generally speaking, having played Melee Based classes in pretty much every game up until now, You're not going to ever be able to do that.

    The Second you don't have to rely on healers in pvp anymore, Is the second Warriors become the only class you should play in PvP.

    So while warriors do well in 1v1, and do well when they have healers, like every other game before, If ya don't have heals and rush into the middle of the enemy, you're pretty much screwed if they focus fire you.

    That's just how Warriors play..

    Lol if you think "most" warriors are pushing 7k hp in that spec. Its also a spec out of necessity not cause of effectiveness. Your damage straight sucks against people of equal gear and skill. You are also the easist class in the game to kite. Any warrior being effective in this spec in rank 6 in a premade fighting people rank 3 or under not in a premade. The people pushing this spec also become nothing more than a nuisance when they dont have 2 healers strapped to the with 2 RDPS assisting them. Basically anything the warrior brings can be replaced by a classs that has more burst more survivability and requires less babysitting from a healer.
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