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Thread: Got me an idear...lol

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Got me an idear...lol

    How about we break from the current tank mold in these other games and make one that isn't your typical 600 pounds of armor, a sword and a shield type guy?

    How about one that wears lighter armor, leather with some scale, who relies on his ability with a staff or double bladed staff for blocks and parries.

    Now, I am not saying make him/her a DPS machine, but make it so its hard to hit em. Spose it would be somewhat along the bruiser line from EQ2, but more heavy duty. The took hits like snowflakes, when you could hit em that is...lol.

    Juphic Render

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juphic View Post
    How about we break from the current tank mold in these other games and make one that isn't your typical 600 pounds of armor, a sword and a shield type guy?

    How about one that wears lighter armor, leather with some scale, who relies on his ability with a staff or double bladed staff for blocks and parries.

    Now, I am not saying make him/her a DPS machine, but make it so its hard to hit em. Spose it would be somewhat along the bruiser line from EQ2, but more heavy duty. The took hits like snowflakes, when you could hit em that is...lol.

    Juphic Render
    Think about it realistically, which do you think has a bigger chance surviving a hit from a 3 meters tall monster (boss fight):
    a: a big strong guy in plate armor from head to toe with a 1,5 meters tall shield in his hand, or
    b: an agile guy with a staff in his hand trying to avoid the hits

    I would put my money on "a", since if the agile guy fails to avoid the attack, the damage taken would be fatal. While that agile class seams to be fun too, but not as a tank. But I do belive that you should be able to make a character you described with Rift's class system.

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara Osho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juphic View Post
    Now, I am not saying make him/her a DPS machine, but make it so its hard to hit em. Spose it would be somewhat along the bruiser line from EQ2, but more heavy duty. The took hits like snowflakes, when you could hit em that is...lol.

    Juphic Render
    This is a very nice suggestion! The EQ2 Monk/Bruiser was a good example how the tank archetype can be represent in a different way in opposite to " typical 600 pounds of armor, a sword and a shield type guy".

    There are still good chances to see such a class. I would love it.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Nimsul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azren View Post
    Think about it realistically, which do you think has a bigger chance surviving a hit from a 3 meters tall monster (boss fight):
    a: a big strong guy in plate armor from head to toe with a 1,5 meters tall shield in his hand, or
    b: an agile guy with a staff in his hand trying to avoid the hits

    I would put my money on "a", since if the agile guy fails to avoid the attack, the damage taken would be fatal. While that agile class seams to be fun too, but not as a tank. But I do belive that you should be able to make a character you described with Rift's class system.
    Actually getting hit with a club or anything from a 3 meter tall monster would turn that heavy armor into a death trap as it would splinter and fracture to carve into the wearer.

    So when facing down a 3 meter tall monster the best defense would be to not get hit at all as either way you're pretty screwed if you do ha ha.

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Maladhiel's Avatar
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    Heavy armor makes you slow, so you kinda just have to sit there and take it. But if you have lighter armor, that agility thing will serve you well. And if you have some massive power behind each hit ... and are able to parry and block and dodge, I think it might be doable.

  6. #6
    Champion Kindair's Avatar
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    The problem is it's hit or miss. People in armour mitigate the dmg so they are easier to heal. They get hit but don't lose a lot. A agile fighter loses more life at faster pace and makes them harder to heal.

    Let's say a monster is hitting a armour tank. He would lose 10% hp per hit, so the caster knows after 6 hits a big heal will heal him to full, so he sits and if an attack is blocked the warrior only takes 5% dmg or if it's parried it's nothing for once, but the healer can keep it under control easier.

    Now with a agile tank its totally different. If he is hit, he loses 30-60% hp, say he gets to 50% hp, the healer has to heal him now, because the next hit can kill him, but it's likely that he won't get hit, thus wasting energy, because he has hots and regens to keep him alive if he doesn't get hit. But if he does get hit a hot will make his hp go from -10 to -5% which is still dead.

    The thing is hots work better on a armour tank as he gets hit almost always but reduces the dmg so greatly that even though he gets hit, he can get hots to keep him maxed out between the blows, while the agile warrior has to remain nearly at the top of his hp because every hit or two hits can kill him.

    Of course you can make a better system, but the way dodge and parry work now, I don't think it would be that useful to have an agile tank and I think that's why the monks don't tank raid content in EQ2. Which is unfortunate, because I like the idea of agile fighters tanking.

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    Rift Chaser Ozon's Avatar
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    Nah i can't agree with you here, for me using a Staff and light armor to tank with just doesn't fit in as a tank, i can see that it can fit the dodge/parry, but not really for tanking a Boss. More likely some normal enemy's to avoid a bit of damage.

    I know using Heavy Armor is not the most realistic way to choose it for example when fighting a huge giant who got a hammer 3 times bigger than you or a dragon spitting fire on you and causing your armor to heat and melt your skin of. But a game can't be to realistic and for me Heavy Armor is more like a symbol for tanking.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osho View Post
    This is a very nice suggestion! The EQ2 Monk/Bruiser was a good example how the tank archetype can be represent in a different way in opposite to " typical 600 pounds of armor, a sword and a shield type guy".

    There are still good chances to see such a class. I would love it.
    An interesting idea in theory, but also one which is very difficult to get right. While the brawlers in EQ2 are an example of this idea, they're also an example of why it failed hopelessly. They were never viable main tanks.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    I'm pretty sure it could be balanced, I've always would have enjoyed finding a system where some tank classes were better with some healers....for example:

    You have a healer A that casts a reaction buff that has 5 charges, each time the player gets hit, player gets healed for 50.
    You have another healer B that casts a ward that wards for 250 dmg. In theory, they are equivalent.

    Now you have 2 tank classes, a mitigation tank A and an avoidance tank B, given that one has 50% mitigation and 0% avoidane and the other has 50% avoidance and 0% mitigation.

    Now there are 2 types of mobs, the fast hitting low dmg mobs, an dthe slow hitting high dmg mobs.
    Mob A: attacks deal 50 dmg, lands 10 attacks before dying
    Mob B: attacks deal 100 dmg, lands 5 attacks before dying

    So everything is equivalent right now

    Format is [Tank, Healer, Mob]
    [A,A,A] = tank takes 25 dmg per hit, healer has to wait until tank has taken 5 hits before casting hsi heal, otherwise he overheals tank, if he waits longer, he wont heal all the dmg cause some procs wont trigger (Not ideal)
    [A,A,B] = tank takes 50 dmg per hit, healer has to precast buff before fight, and then once it expires {Kinda good)
    [A,B,A] = tank takes 25 dmg per hit, healer has to preward him and reward him once it expires (kinda good)
    [A,B,A] = tank takes 50 dmg per hit, healer has to preward him and reward him once it rexpires (kinda good)
    [B,A,A] = tank takes 50 dmg per hit, healer precasts buff, and odds are will have to cast it again (kinda good)
    [B,A,B] = tank takes 100 dmg per hit, healer cannot keep up withh tank dmg (bad)
    [B,B,A]= tank takes 50 dmg per hit, preward, reward once it expires (kinda good)
    [B,B,B] = tank takes 100 dmg per hit, healer cannot keep up with tank dmg (bad)

    So even in this situation, most healers would take tank A, cause the worst case scenario is you have to wait 1/2 way thru fight to heal. So to even out the 2 tanks, you'd need to make 1 tank more consistent (mitigation) and 1 tank more eratic/sporatic (avoidance). The avoidance tank would have to be able to have a better probability of taking less dmg, so 2 tanks at the same level, if you adjusted the avoidance tank to have let's say 60% avoidance to mit tank's 50% mitigiation. Then the avoidance tank could potentially come out ahead, the warding healer would prefer the avoidance because to him, it'd be better but the reactionary healer would prefer the mitigation tank because he takes smaller hits so his heal actually heals to max potential.

    Now this is only a suggestion, if people come up with other waysto tank, I can come up with new healer ideas and how they can be adapted to prefer some tanks over others. Mitigation and avoidance are some of the easiest ones to describe.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser Arrocken's Avatar
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    I don't mind the idea, but I'm not sure I would like a system where somebody pretty much auto-dodges the majority of all my attacks in pvp.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Keynote:the numbers stated above are just numbers taken to facilitate calculations and the examples. So it could be toned down to 30% avoidance and 30% mit. Anyway,

    What difference does it make? If you hit for 100 dmg, if you do 100 hits, you would deal for sure 5000 dmg to the mitigation tank while the avoidance tank would take somewhere between 0 and 10000 dmg, ideally somewhere around 4500-4750 dmg but the dmg spikes would be higher on him

    It comes out to the same thing really.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    There are always proponents both directions of course...lol.

    My thought was that I think the term "tank" came from that guy wearing 600 pounds of plate armor. I guess i would like to see a new term made up. In reality, what is really needed is someone that the mob is concentrating on, so the dps can chew it up from the flanks as it were.
    So however that would be accomplished, whether it would be frustration from being called names and not being able to hit someone, or the fact that you can hit em, but they laugh at you and keep bashing out your big ogre teeth with a shield...lol. Maybe stop calling them tanks and start calling them "Targets" or something?....lol.

    Juphic Render

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juphic View Post
    There are always proponents both directions of course...lol.

    My thought was that I think the term "tank" came from that guy wearing 600 pounds of plate armor. I guess i would like to see a new term made up. In reality, what is really needed is someone that the mob is concentrating on, so the dps can chew it up from the flanks as it were.
    So however that would be accomplished, whether it would be frustration from being called names and not being able to hit someone, or the fact that you can hit em, but they laugh at you and keep bashing out your big ogre teeth with a shield...lol. Maybe stop calling them tanks and start calling them "Targets" or something?....lol.

    Juphic Render
    Well the word tank to me has always been the description of a class that has agro management + the ability to soak up damage, how the tank does it is up to interpretation.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Vembumees87's Avatar
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    Well, a monk tank could simply tank by absorbtion spells as well, with end-tier selfcastable spells, which absorb ~50-70% damage, which also makes aggro with every hit it takes and last stand skills, for example which could be used in every 30 seconds and make the target unable to get under 30% health for 3 seconds or something similar. Magic absorbtion skills seem a bit more logical than simply parrying with a staff. And in PvP such absorbtion would simply be countered by dispells or crowd control.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Elladar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azren View Post
    Think about it realistically, which do you think has a bigger chance surviving a hit from a 3 meters tall monster (boss fight):
    a: a big strong guy in plate armor from head to toe with a 1,5 meters tall shield in his hand, or
    b: an agile guy with a staff in his hand trying to avoid the hits

    I would put my money on "a", since if the agile guy fails to avoid the attack, the damage taken would be fatal. While that agile class seams to be fun too, but not as a tank. But I do belive that you should be able to make a character you described with Rift's class system.
    I have to disagree! I would place my money on b, simply because that 3meter tall bloke HAS to hit him first. He will land his hits about 90% of the time on a, BUT if he cant hit b, b will win.
    I don't need to "Get a life."! I'm a Gamer! I have loads of Lifes! - - - Necromancy - happiness is an army of unstoppable, loyal, killing machines.

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