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Thread: The problem with Tanks and Mages in PvP, and perhaps a solution:

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    Soulwalker
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    Default The problem with Tanks and Mages in PvP, and perhaps a solution:

    First is there a problem with Tanks and Mages in PvP. I think there is and it has to do with how they are supposed to work together. The Mage is the glass cannon that needs enemies taunted off him to survive and the tank's only purpose is to take the damage so that others can deal out the damage.

    This dynamic is what makes PvE work, but is completely broken in PvP. You won't find tanks in PvP because smart players will just kill everyone around them first, and non-pyro mages suffer because there is no way to protect them, the glass cannon breaks before it has time to dish out much damage.

    These are problems that everyone has just accepted as part of PvP at this point, but I'm not sure it needs to be that way. I'd like to hear your feedback on one suggestion that I think would help and make PvP more interesting at the same time.

    Make taunts put a debuff on the target which redirects all damage they do back to the tank. So as a tank, you see a rouge pop out and start wailing on a mage or cleric, taunt him and redirect all that damage for 3 secs to yourself, or use it to protect the shard or flag carrier...

    So what do you think about this idea? Possible? Does it horribly break anything? Is it enough to make Tanks something to consider playing and would it be helpful to Mages and other classes?
    Last edited by frankthurk2; 05-12-2011 at 07:51 AM.

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    Ascendant nemecis's Avatar
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    much of what you're looking for can be found in the warrior PvP soul - taunts reducing damage taken by team, raid wide 50% mitigation for 30s, chance on block to increase crit of team.

    Trion already took these things into consideration. The issue is investing heavily in the pvp souls generally results in a weaker individual player - far too many are concerned with individual rather than team performance (cant blame them if they pug all the time).

    As for mages, few are glass cannons in this game. Non Pyros as you say, can spec into chloro or necro for some quality self heals, being ranged also affords them a higher survivability rate then you give them credit for.

    personally, i run 2 tank builds in pvp, 1 being taugrim's hybrid tank/dps build, the other being a full VK spec which is proving devastating when played with a capable team. I know Riftstalker builds that excell @ carrying objective objects - sure they're not tanking, but their soul is still valued in PvP. I know justicar builds for clerics that are near impossible to kill, again maybe not tanking in the traditional sense, but when 3+ players are trying to take them out unsucessfully, you may as well call them tanks.

    You need to broaden your definitions, and realize that this game does allow Tank specs some valuable utility in PvP scenarios.

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    Soulwalker
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    Thanks for the well thought out response. Guard is pretty much exactly what I was looking for.
    Last edited by frankthurk2; 05-12-2011 at 08:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankthurk2 View Post
    First is there a problem with Tanks and Mages in PvP. I think there is and it has to do with how they are supposed to work together. The Mage is the glass cannon that needs enemies taunted off him to survive and the tank's only purpose is to take the damage so that others can deal out the damage.

    This dynamic is what makes PvE work, but is completely broken in PvP. You won't find tanks in PvP because smart players will just kill everyone around them first, and non-pyro mages suffer because there is no way to protect them, the glass cannon breaks before it has time to dish out much damage.

    These are problems that everyone has just accepted as part of PvP at this point, but I'm not sure it needs to be that way. I'd like to hear your feedback on one suggestion that I think would help and make PvP more interesting at the same time.

    Make taunts put a debuff on the target which redirects all damage they do back to the tank. So as a tank, you see a rouge pop out and start wailing on a mage or cleric, taunt him and redirect all that damage for 3 secs to yourself, or use it to protect the shard or flag carrier...

    So what do you think about this idea? Possible? Does it horribly break anything? Is it enough to make Tanks something to consider playing and would it be helpful to Mages and other classes?
    this already exists in the warrior pvp tree taunt makes the targets ddamage be reduuced by 60% on everyone but himself.
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    Rift Disciple
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    First of all, PVP is the realm of DPS specs. You don't see tanks in PVP because they do little to no damage and are of no real threat to anyone. You just ignore them. Same with pets... ignore the pets, kill the master.

    Tank mechanics revolve around threat tables... with players, you have no threat tables... so there is nothing a tank can do to convince you to beat on them other than your own stupidity. In PVP, you get players off other players by killing them. The quickest way to kill them is with DPS.

    I personally think PVP should be devoid of all healing/support/tanking classes and be purely DPS classes... because the objective is to swiftly kill your opponent, not see which team has the best pocket healers.

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    @Tanay

    I think you'll find more tank specs in pvp than dps specs, atleast for warriors.
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    Reminds me of Devotion Paladins in Ragnarok (which was extra fun because if you put a status effect that breaks on damage on the devotion target, he won't break out of it because he isn't taking any damage)

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    aux
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    No, the problem is that the mage's defensive skills are there, they just aren't working anymore.
    I'm so BORED

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanay View Post
    First of all, PVP is the realm of DPS specs. You don't see tanks in PVP because they do little to no damage and are of no real threat to anyone. You just ignore them. Same with pets... ignore the pets, kill the master.

    Tank mechanics revolve around threat tables... with players, you have no threat tables... so there is nothing a tank can do to convince you to beat on them other than your own stupidity. In PVP, you get players off other players by killing them. The quickest way to kill them is with DPS.

    I personally think PVP should be devoid of all healing/support/tanking classes and be purely DPS classes... because the objective is to swiftly kill your opponent, not see which team has the best pocket healers.
    I think you'll find lots of tanks in PvP. It's why there's all the "ZOMG CLERICS ARE OP AND UNKILLABLE!!!" whine threads around.

    A lot of clerics tank by necessity. Myself and many others started as dps and/or heals and gradually shifted to tank/heal because we had to in order to survive the "mob the healer" mentality. We have the best taunt in the world, it's called "I R CLERIC!!" Too many people can't recognize what spec a cleric is running so they lump them in to one of two categories "He hurt me" or "He healed that guy." Getting put in the "He healed that guy" category is almost as good as a forced taunt, except on those players who have random target aggro and lack a threat table.

    Edit: The players without reliable threat tables can usually be taunted through use of the skills "Bunny Hop" and "Rush the Mob"
    Last edited by Unspecified; 05-13-2011 at 08:50 PM.
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    Tanks can be deadly if they have enough burst damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aux View Post
    No, the problem is that the mage's defensive skills are there, they just aren't working anymore.
    Exactly. If we have to take a universal nerf to our HP across every soul (reduced end on our pvp gear), and basically gimp our CC, we either need an increase in mitigation and run speed, runcasting, or a huge damage buff on anything that doesn't start with P and end with YRO.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Rift Chaser Rolotomasi's Avatar
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    the problem with subdue only work with vk single taunt. pally shield throw and sergeant order do not proc subdue. idk about grim lure.

    all aoe taunt do not proc subdue. airbust, judgement crack skull does not proc subdue. high reaver taunt which does not share cd also do not proc subdue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Exactly. If we have to take a universal nerf to our HP across every soul (reduced end on our pvp gear), and basically gimp our CC, we either need an increase in mitigation and run speed, runcasting, or a huge damage buff on anything that doesn't start with P and end with YRO.
    This is exactly it. I love my Cloro spec, I really do... but I've noticed it is less and less effective in PVP these days.

    So I tried other specs... they barely did more damage, because I still got focused just as much... and now I didn't have the survivability for the focusing. (This is bad, because Cloro single target heal has a 10 sec cooldown, and if you are getting hit by rogues, tanks, and clerics, they can and will slow/stop your casting.)

    Mages can not run and cast. Their GCD is enormous. Their Cast times are usually 2 seconds. It's very, very hard for anything other than Pyro to dish out enough damage to matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jezeray View Post
    This is exactly it. I love my Cloro spec, I really do... but I've noticed it is less and less effective in PVP these days.

    So I tried other specs... they barely did more damage, because I still got focused just as much... and now I didn't have the survivability for the focusing. (This is bad, because Cloro single target heal has a 10 sec cooldown, and if you are getting hit by rogues, tanks, and clerics, they can and will slow/stop your casting.)

    Mages can not run and cast. Their GCD is enormous. Their Cast times are usually 2 seconds. It's very, very hard for anything other than Pyro to dish out enough damage to matter.
    Chloro is not an effective PvP spec for many reasons:

    The Chloros target can easily reduce all healing by any of the following:
    - Purging Lifegiving Veil
    - Using a Cooldown (less damage done to him = less healing done by Chloro...lol)
    - Gear up. (same as above)
    - Line of sight
    - Healing debuffs

    On top of that, Chloro's have 7s of true survivability every 3 minutes.... And that's a 31 pt ability in ANOTHER tree. Our own 31pt ability is useless.

    The entire Chloro tree, minus a handful of talents, needs a hardcore reworking. We need damage mitigation, cast protection/reduction, and better cooldowns. Healing should be increased and cast time reduced by a % based on number of points spent in the tree. With a simple rework, it'd get somewhere.

    The best way to exemplify Chloros PvP problems is to start a 5v5 Black Garden match where the Chloro is the only healer. All the other team has to do to make sure the Fang carrier dies is... stay away. How f*cking stupid is that?

    /rant
    Last edited by Stigas; 05-13-2011 at 11:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fireforge View Post
    Tanks can be deadly if they have enough burst damage.
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