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Thread: Trion, why do you always create 1 Overpowered soul each patch? You should know better

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    Default Trion, why do you always create 1 Overpowered soul each patch? You should know better

    Champs, Pyros, Justicar/templar/sent hybrids, and now Marksman?

    Why can't you just leave well enough alone? If marksman were underpowered in PvE, then buff them there, and not in PvP.

    Improved Hit and Run is overpowered as hell, being able to spam every ability at me at their leisure without worrying about energy cost. But in addition to this, they now can strip me of all my buffs at NO COOLDOWN. And they ALWAYS have the energy to do it.

    This ruins chloromancers, justicars, wardens, BARDS.

    What could you have possibly been thinking? I am 100% baffled. How did this at any one point in time seem like a good idea? And it's not like we didnt see this coming on the test shard too. I mean, come on.

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    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaarrj View Post
    Champs, Pyros, Justicar/templar/sent hybrids, and now Marksman?

    Why can't you just leave well enough alone? If marksman were underpowered in PvE, then buff them there, and not in PvP.

    Improved Hit and Run is overpowered as hell, being able to spam every ability at me at their leisure without worrying about energy cost. But in addition to this, they now can strip me of all my buffs at NO COOLDOWN. And they ALWAYS have the energy to do it.

    This ruins chloromancers, justicars, wardens, BARDS.

    What could you have possibly been thinking? I am 100% baffled. How did this at any one point in time seem like a good idea? And it's not like we didnt see this coming on the test shard too. I mean, come on.
    hell we saw it coming from theory crafting alone, upon mention of buffing the MM class, with no particulars at all.

    Gives people something to do I suppose.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

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    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaarrj View Post
    Champs, Pyros, Justicar/templar/sent hybrids, and now Marksman?

    Why can't you just leave well enough alone? If marksman were underpowered in PvE, then buff them there, and not in PvP.

    I await your suggestion that would fix their PvE issues without changing them in PvP.

    Besides MM is the closest thing outside of Dominator to a "PvP centric Soul".
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

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    Bards are actually one of the few counters for Eradicate.

    Improved Hit&Run is the renamed version of Hit&Run and Controlled Fire in 1.1. Nothing new here, except now deal +21% damage (sniper training) and roughly 50%+ of the WF are Marksmen.
    Last edited by Kaladai; 05-12-2011 at 07:17 AM.
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    Ascendant ShalarLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    I await your suggestion that would fix their PvE issues without changing them in PvP.

    Besides MM is the closest thing outside of Dominator to a "PvP centric Soul".
    Point is, they said they were buffing MM, and concurrently destroying CC, and giving them a dispel, and I immediately scrapped my bard spec, and started working on a different spec that would stand a chance in the MM's world.
    Last edited by ShalarLight; 05-12-2011 at 07:17 AM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rizaz View Post
    FYI Riftstalker running isn't even pve. .... You might as well call riftstalker running PVE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skaarrj View Post
    blah blah blah...

    Improved Hit and Run is overpowered as hell, being able to spam every ability at me at their leisure without worrying about energy cost.... more blah.
    Marks could do this in the past, it just required 2 clicks instead of one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    I await your suggestion that would fix their PvE issues without changing them in PvP.
    Exactly. Pyros, another good example, aren't that great in PVE, but they're redonk in PVP. It's been how long now and Trion hasn't struck a good balance? Oh right, they still haven't managed it.

    For that matter, how many nerfs has MM taken in beta and the soul was left for dead for how long until it got a buff? Trion's balance team constantly swings for the fences. When they hit it's out of the park, when they miss they nearly take their own arm off.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShalarLight View Post
    Point is, they said they were buffing MM, and concurrently destroying CC, and giving them a dispel, and I immediately scrapped my bard spec, and started working on a different spec that would stand a chance in the MM's world.
    I'm confused as to why you would scrap your Bard spec. MM isn't going to dispel everyone your buffing and your ability to heal isn't effected at all. Your buffs actually act as a "buffer"(pun intended) for more important buffs.

    So in a round about way you made things harder on everyone you played with because now their important self buffs are the only target for MMs dispel instead of forcing them to chew thru your much weaker Bard buffs before getting to theirs.
    Last edited by Mr Malingers; 05-12-2011 at 07:26 AM.
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    For that matter, how many nerfs has MM taken in beta and the soul was left for dead for how long until it got a buff? Trion's balance team constantly swings for the fences. When they hit it's out of the park, when they miss they nearly take their own arm off.
    Balancing MMOs is difficult. Every poster seems to believe their poorly thought out idea thats "just so simple" is all they need to do but the reality is the game is big and there are tons of factors to everything. So I don't really hold Trion or any MMO company too much at blame for not getting it right quickly.

    Also MM the playstyle has been "fine" since release. MM the spec has been another story.
    I've been MM since headstart and this is the first time I've had most of my points in MM.
    But, 32NB/15Inf/19MM has been a good spec the whole time.
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    Balancing MMOs is difficult. Every poster seems to believe their poorly thought out idea thats "just so simple" is all they need to do but the reality is the game is big and there are tons of factors to everything. So I don't really hold Trion or any MMO company too much at blame for not getting it right quickly.
    Of course it is difficult, no-one will dispute that. But they don't make it easy for themselves because they don't seem to listen to the players who put in the time and effort to play on the test server and report on possible problems. The Marksman issues were pointed out during testing of 1.2, check out the posts on Eradicate. But as with previous problematic changes they didn't listen to the testers. You have to question what the point of the test server is if devs just stubbornly plough on with changes because 'they know best'. In many cases they probably don't know best because they aren't the ones playing hour after hour in the warfronts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cern View Post
    Of course it is difficult, no-one will dispute that. But they don't make it easy for themselves because they don't seem to listen to the players who put in the time and effort to play on the test server and report on possible problems. The Marksman issues were pointed out during testing of 1.2, check out the posts on Eradicate. But as with previous problematic changes they didn't listen to the testers. You have to question what the point of the test server is if devs just stubbornly plough on with changes because 'they know best'. In many cases they probably don't know best because they aren't the ones playing hour after hour in the warfronts.
    The ones playing hour after hour also frequently have an agenda or are simply misinformed about the rest of the game around the ability they are talking about. To be honest I'd prefer it if Dev's didn't listen to the players, I wouldn't trust 99% of them to be honest.

    Also is that Vultan in your avatar?
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cern View Post
    Of course it is difficult, no-one will dispute that. But they don't make it easy for themselves because they don't seem to listen to the players who put in the time and effort to play on the test server and report on possible problems. The Marksman issues were pointed out during testing of 1.2, check out the posts on Eradicate. But as with previous problematic changes they didn't listen to the testers. You have to question what the point of the test server is if devs just stubbornly plough on with changes because 'they know best'. In many cases they probably don't know best because they aren't the ones playing hour after hour in the warfronts.

    This. x100. We aren't armchair developers but god damn we know when somethings overpowered when we see it. Fix it. We don't care how, but FIX IT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    The ones playing hour after hour also frequently have an agenda or are simply misinformed about the rest of the game around the ability they are talking about. To be honest I'd prefer it if Dev's didn't listen to the players, I wouldn't trust 99% of them to be honest.

    Also is that Vultan in your avatar?
    On one hand I agree with you, balance based on forum QQ is almost always a bad idea, but on the other hand...did one of us suggest eradicate? Or additive math stacking? The red ball + pyro = stuff? Sometimes bad ideas do indeed come from the devs.

    Shadowbane helped alleviate this by creating a focus group of long time dedicated players, and having a special forum for them to dicuss things directly with the devs and help balance the game. It was pretty successful, and the atmosphere in those focus group boards is nothing like the insanity you see around here.

    Perhaps something similar would be a good idea for Trion. It's not like they have to make the changes those players suggest, but at least they'd be getting useful feedback from a core of people that actually play instead of theorycraft and code crunch all day.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    On one hand I agree with you, balance based on forum QQ is almost always a bad idea, but on the other hand...did one of us suggest eradicate? Or additive math stacking? The red ball + pyro = stuff? Sometimes bad ideas do indeed come from the devs.

    Shadowbane helped alleviate this by creating a focus group of long time dedicated players, and having a special forum for them to dicuss things directly with the devs and help balance the game. It was pretty successful, and the atmosphere in those focus group boards is nothing like the insanity you see around here.

    Perhaps something similar would be a good idea for Trion. It's not like they have to make the changes those players suggest, but at least they'd be getting useful feedback from a core of people that actually play instead of theorycraft and code crunch all day.
    Core group of players is just as biased as the developers (even more so) so it loses credibility. I'm not saying a class-lead isn't a bad idea for bugs/suggested improvements but it's better tracked through an online database system.

    The answer is having 'vision', stating said 'vision' clearly, executing the clear 'vision', and re-evaluating where that 'vision' is based on other adjustments.

    Step 1. Need a 'vision' for PvP balance. Let's start here.
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    Plane Touched Cern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    The ones playing hour after hour also frequently have an agenda or are simply misinformed about the rest of the game around the ability they are talking about. To be honest I'd prefer it if Dev's didn't listen to the players, I wouldn't trust 99% of them to be honest.
    Some players do have an agenda, true. But most of those who play a lot of PvP just want a fair and fun fight and so are usually pretty alert to unbalanced abilities. An ability like Eradicate has very little PVE utility (can't buff strip bosses, not much point on trash) so the impact on the rest of the game from balancing it for PvP is largely irrelevant.

    Also is that Vultan in your avatar?
    Indeed

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