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Thread: Thoughts on 51 point abillities.

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default Thoughts on 51 point abillities.

    I've been thinking about what makes a good 51 point ability that makes it worthwhile specializing in a class.

    A 51 point ability in my oppinion needs to meet several criteria:

    1. It needs to always be noticable when you play your character. When you spend so many points becoming the absolute master in a soul you don't want your epic 51ness to go on cooldown and you'll have to be unremarkable in the meanwhile, it should be something you use all the time, that really defines your class.

    2. It shouldn't completely change the playstyle of the class. The ability should not be something that is so different from everything your character was doing before that it bears no resemblance to 50 points invested. You should be able to level a soul from level 1 through 50 without hitting 50 and suddenly nothing is familiar anymore.

    3. It needs to be powerful, and be a significant upgrade to what that soul does naturally. If possible it should also look impressive, so that people can actually see that you are a specialist.


    Considering all those things in my oppinion the best thing a 51 point ability can be would be an ability that replaces and significantly upgrades one of the souls basic and most used abilities. For example, a Chloromancer will use Vile Spores all the time even at top levels, so a significant 51 ability would be a massively upgraded version of vile spores, that generates more healing, casts faster etc. This works with every class, take their most used workhorse ability, and at 51 give them a much better version of it - that way it's a real upgrade that's always on, you get better at what you already do and without changing the class into something completely different from a non 51...

    What do you guys think makes a good 51?

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    I definately like the idea of something that is not on a long cooldown. Anything greater than 30 seconds is too long. An ability that is meant to reward comitment to a soul should be useable at least once every encounter, not once every few.

    I like the idea of passives that enhance existing abilities too, but it should be a true passive and not a dispellable buff. Given the changes to dispells in 1.2 there are already too many core class mechanics that can be disabled by a dispell.

    Also the 51 point abilities should not have any affect on abilities outside of the soul. Thinks like a flat out damage buff should be removed in favor of damage buffs, or enhanced utility, or both, for abilities in that soul only.

  3. #3
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    51pt skills on a long cooldown are terrible imo, i want something to be reliable and not omg for 10 seconds every 2 minutes.

    thats the problem i have with 51pt abilities atm. something more along the lines of what they implemented into other souls with the passive 2% dot increase every point past 31 etc.

    but obviously tweaked for a 51pt ability.

    maybe some kind of special stance. i.e.

    Bard Stance
    Increases healing with cadence by 20%
    Increases buff duration by 50%

    etc....

    They used these in Eq2 too but they had postives and negatives attached to them.

    +dmg
    - healing etc
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    Plane Walker
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    A stance that boosts low level abilities would boil down to the same as just giving an upgraded version of a low level ability.

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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    I would like to see them all be an always on passive buff to some of the soul's defining abilities. That alone would make 51 point builds more attractive if they were all really good class defining buffs.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    51 talents just need to be a continuation of the soul, thats it.
    My personal preference would be to remove all 51 talents, have them stop at 44 and promote more hybrid specs and give more freedom with specs rather than force someone to feel they have to max their main soul in order to get some super powered ability.
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    51 talents just need to be a continuation of the soul, thats it.
    My personal preference would be to remove all 51 talents, have them stop at 44 and promote more hybrid specs and give more freedom with specs rather than force someone to feel they have to max their main soul in order to get some super powered ability.
    And I thought hybrids are THE way to go already, why do you need to promote them EVEN more? If anything, Trion needs to improve the 51pt builds!

    That said, I love my elementalist's 51pt ability: the fire elementals are pretty much what the OP described as a good 51pt power, except that they have a fairly long cooldown. I'd love if this cooldown was reduced (especially if it was changed to the same cooldown as intensify, so you could always use the fire elementals along with intensify). As it is right now, elementalists are not in the top category for damage, so this change would probably be justified.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Malingers View Post
    My personal preference would be to remove all 51 talents, have them stop at 44 and promote more hybrid specs and give more freedom with specs rather than force someone to feel they have to max their main soul in order to get some super powered ability.
    Currently hybrid specs are already way more powerful than any 51 with very few exceptions. If anything freedom would increase if they gave people more reason to specialize.

    The vast majority of souls only gain 3-4 more abilities after 32 and by the time you have 32 points invested you usually also have all the best talents on the tree already bought, so the usefulness of point investment drops sharply, especially since you'll end up having to buy PvE or PvP talents despite hardly any build in this game being created for both since you can switch roles so quickly.

    Something has to compell people to spend 19 more points in that soul rather than another where you'll pick up another 8-9 additional standard abilities, easily 2-3 point buy ones and you can still cherry pick the best talents from that soul, rather than having to just put points whereever you can.

  9. #9
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    As has been stated, core skills for a soul are usually gotten by the time you've invested 32 points, with some weird exceptions. I think this is the proper way to do it in order to promote hybrid play.

    Now past 32 need to be skills that either improve or expand the functionality, rather than help establish the base skillset of the soul.

    We're always talking about pyromancers, so let's look at the pyromancer soul. It's a particularly poor example because it's one of the rare souls that have core abilities at 44 and 51. This is how not to design a class, because without its class defining skills early on, pyromancer struggles to be an effective hybrid soul. Yeah, you can put a few points in it to play second fiddle to a 51pt archon, and I heard someone mention a pyro/elementalist hybrid once because Heat Wave resets Intensify Elements, but outside of a freak synergy like that the soul struggles to work well with another, in part because it's not fully functional at 32.

    Looking at 1.2 marksman on the other hand, this is one I think they got right, at least in the way skills are laid out. The skills past 32 points either improve the soul's established functionality (Improved Hit and Run, Sniper Pedestal), or expand the soul's functionality in a useful, but optional way (Eradicate). This is good class design.

    Am I saying sweeping changes are needed for every soul that isn't laid out similarly? No, not really, but it's probably worth looking at the souls where the ratio of 44-51 point to 3x/3x hybrid builds is extremely skewed.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  10. #10
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corian View Post
    As has been stated, core skills for a soul are usually gotten by the time you've invested 32 points, with some weird exceptions. I think this is the proper way to do it in order to promote hybrid play.

    Now past 32 need to be skills that either improve or expand the functionality, rather than help establish the base skillset of the soul.

    We're always talking about pyromancers, so let's look at the pyromancer soul. It's a particularly poor example because it's one of the rare souls that have core abilities at 44 and 51. This is how not to design a class, because without its class defining skills early on, pyromancer struggles to be an effective hybrid soul. Yeah, you can put a few points in it to play second fiddle to a 51pt archon, and I heard someone mention a pyro/elementalist hybrid once because Heat Wave resets Intensify Elements, but outside of a freak synergy like that the soul struggles to work well with another, in part because it's not fully functional at 32.

    Looking at 1.2 marksman on the other hand, this is one I think they got right, at least in the way skills are laid out. The skills past 32 points either improve the soul's established functionality (Improved Hit and Run, Sniper Pedestal), or expand the soul's functionality in a useful, but optional way (Eradicate). This is good class design.

    Am I saying sweeping changes are needed for every soul that isn't laid out similarly? No, not really, but it's probably worth looking at the souls where the ratio of 44-51 point to 3x/3x hybrid builds is extremely skewed.
    I agree 100% with this post. The 51 abilities shouldn't dictate how a soul plays (playstyle). However, they should have such IMMENSE impact in the effectivity of the particular soul, making them actually viable choice and not something to be frowned upon by other players. Atm if you are using a pure build over some strange odd hybrid from hell with nothing but odd numerical ties just because some numbers match, the least you are going to be called is a noob.

    I am a math guy and always try to squeeze every little out of my builds. However, I do value some RP elements in making some builds as well. It is an MMORPG after all. Rift atm is ridiculous on this aspect. They gave no incentive to go for a pure build over a hybrid. This doesn't give more choices. It gives less. Pure builds should be AS effective as hybrids if not more effective for particular situations (since hybrids usually provide diversity as well).
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  11. #11
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    Now I haven't played enough classes to know them all, but from what I've seen a lot of the 51 point abilities are really good. The problem comes when you see the rest of the skills.... you have to buy into 20 points of crap to get it.

    I'm sure this has already been stated, but I'm reading this at work so I had to skim some of the longer ones.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker
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    Yea, the issue with a lot of those abilities isn't that thei're bad, the issue is that you have to give up so much to get them that unless they are something that makes a bigger regular impact on your gameplay than a cooldown ever can it's just not worth it.

  13. #13
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    Prime example: Chloromancer

    Void Life

    I really like this skill, but is it worth giving up Potency, Dark Power, and Improved Warlock Armor from the Warlock tree?

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    Well I think the 51 Point from Archon fits really well to what they do. But yeah some of the other souls needs a revamping to make it more effective.

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser Scerun's Avatar
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    You know, I had never thought of this and it's a very, very good point. I guess we're too far gone now to see such massive changes, but I couldn't agree more. It would be nice to have that 51pointer something that makes you say ' I am a marksman. I am a champion. I am the best at what I do.'

    Currently there are moves on such long cooldowns it's more a case of 'Hey, guess what! POW! yea that's right! 51 pyro bizzatch!'

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