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Thread: Trion doesnt ruin balance, the playerbase do

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Trion doesnt ruin balance, the playerbase do

    I'll properly get alot of flaming for this thread here. But I really think we have to start owning our own part in nerfs/buffs ect, before we start complaining to the devs. I'll give a few exambles, and many of you are properly going to disagree.

    1) Warriors got some major nerfs/fixes in 1.1. The problem with these nerfs, was that 90% of the complaints came from people who where 49 and down (and yes, Champions were powerhouses in these brackets). But at level 50, even before 1.1 went live, Champons where really one of the weakest PvP callings. They did decent damage, but they could get kited, had absolutely no suvivability, no self healing and so on. If people would let them run around and do damage, they could really dish out some great damage. But pretty much every other soul in the game, can counter them easily if they just took their time to know the calling. This examble here, is really why I hate balancing so early in a game. Most people who complain, are people who doesn't really know the other callings and how to play against them. Champions are very easy to play, and therefore looked overpowered. We have 10+ Clerics in rank 5/5, 10+ Mages in rank 5/6 and a few Rogues aswell. We have 1 Warrior in rank 5 and I'm getting rather close now. Warriors have always been one of the most played classes in any MMO, but in Rift, none really plays them anymore. The playerbase won this one, and totally ruined one of the callings.

    2. My next examble. Before 1.1 went live, Mages complained and complained, that they did to little damage, they where to gimped in PvP ect. What a load of ********. I played with a few Mages before 1.1, who really took their time to know their class and they ripped people apart in PvP and parsed higher in instances than all the other callings. They told me, it took some time, to get the rotations, learn in which order to cast ect.
    But when they got it down, they where doing more than fine. Mages where much harder to master than Warriors, which made a natural learning curve in the game, where we saw Warriors owning in the lower brackets and Mages dying alot. This really was a learn your class thing. Now see, what has happend with Mages. They got some buffs, they didnt need and atm. they are one of the most overpowered classes I have ever seen in any MMO. Chloro/Lock is unkillable, Pyros are 1-2 shotting and immune to cc, with an insane damage reduction, Ele/SC is hammering whole groups down on their own, Dominators I dont even want to start with and I could keep going. All of this is because people come on here and complain, because they haven't took the time to learn their own and other callings properly. The game was way more balanced in beta, than it is now and the playerbase is ruining that balance.

    A little sidenote. I'll bet that after 1.2 Mages are going to reroll Ele/SC and they are getting hit with nerfs next. That spec is really more op than Pyro. I really wonder why we dont see more playing that spec.

    3. We see more and more Rogues popping up in the higher ranks in PvP and totally ripping other callings apart. Try asking a Pyro, what class they hate the most. Try asking any melee soul, who they hate the most. And now they are getting buffed. Guess who will be the next op calling. Rogues are doing insanely good dps in Greenscale/RoS ect. MM is getting some well-deserved buffs. Sab's got hit to hard imo and could really use some minor tuning, so they are viable in PvP and PvE again.

    4. The Templar soul is getting some nerfs, which I personally think is fair and needed. The unkillable Clerics in PvP where really ruining the game alot, so I'm happy with them trying to fix this. Besides that, Clerics are really a calling in need of some love imo. Melee Clerics (Shaman/Druid/(Justicar?)) really could use some buffs, so they are on par with other callings dps. Justicar needs some tuningto their magic mitigation ect. Inq and Caba needs a little love to, making them on par with Rogues, Mages and BM's (only viable raiding soul atm). I haven't played a healer yet, so cant really comment on that, but looking from the sideline, it looks fine to me?

    I beg you all. Think before you complain. Your calling/soul aint supposed to be able to kill every other callling. We have some counter callings/souls here in Rift. And that counter calling/soul you just got destroyed by, guess what. They got a counter calling/soul aswell and get's destroyed by that calling/soul.
    A calling is only op, if they destroy every other calling/soul and dont have any counters.

    The only thing we get out of all these nerfs, that needs fixing some patches later, because they where not really needed, is less content. As long as we keep Trion so focused on nerfing/buffing classes in PvP, they wont have time to give us RvR, new WF's ect. If you want more PvP content, then zip it and let Trion sort it out on their own. Believe me, they do also have people playing this game and giving proper feedback.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    I personally think you hit the spot man, alot of people get off a losing Warfront and come to QQ in the forum without even stopping to think about why they got pwned or what could they do to counter/play better

    Good post
    Last edited by ScarletSkyFury; 05-06-2011 at 03:43 AM.

  3. #3
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    Champions were overpowered, now they're balanced. It was needed, and most of it came from a bug fix.

    Mages were never underpowered. Now they're overpowered. Post 1.2 they'll still be overpowered, but by a bit less.

  4. #4
    Rift Master
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    Yeah I agree. 1.1 was pretty much just knee-jerk reaction to forum whining. The metagame and game as a whole wasnt really solved as much as it is now. Now you can see Rogues/mages/clerics pull same dps as warriors just because they figured it out a little slower. Too bad 1.1 pretty much killed warrior population. Also I dont think fixing bugs and nerfing is a real way to go.

    Yes, those huge changes were a mistake. People were not high pvp ranks or 50 even. People had no gear, skill, and figured out builds. I think right now is the time when we should get big balance patch like 1.1 was.
    Last edited by Zhalfirim; 05-06-2011 at 03:57 AM.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    Default PvP reply

    good and insightful post.

    I'll even add an example:

    Pyromancer soul has burn which allows you to disarm a person for 5s with a 50s cooldown, instant.

    I heard someone in one of my groups start hollering all bloodly hell once it happened to him and while I don't recall his name to doublecheck he quit the warfront immediately to post about his outrage.

    I use burn quite often but it only works on stupid melee pvpers.

    Drex@stonecrest (sp) just does what any smart PvPer would do and gets the enchantment to make him immune to this tactic.

    So he kicks me around like a little schoolgirl instead of whining about some imbalance (which doesn''t really exist).

    The thing is alot of people pvp (and then whine) without doing all of the below:

    Get gear suited to a pvp environment BEFORE you go, just like you would get gear suited to a raiding environment before you try to get into t1 groups. Its just common sense.

    Create a Role (or 3) specifically designed for pvp. Even if you pick the same souls and rough layout there are branch options to buy that are simply very useful in pvp but nearly worthless in pve (since mobs are dumb). Constantly modify this as you go & learn more about what other players can do to you.

    Learn the other callings/souls, even if its just examining some Soulbuilder to see what others are capable of doing to you, although playing one a little (level 20 is pretty easy to get to in a day or two) certainly helps highlight what they can do but also often brings out issues the calling has that you can work on taking advantage of.

    There are alot of great players in pvp who realize all of this (and likely far more) and don't whine but unfortunately in many of these games its only the loudest that Devs get to hear from.



    ps., oh one last note, getting to level 50 doesn't make you an expert in PvP.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    I also agree, PVP cry babies kill good MMO's. Especially for pve'ers.
    It's only a game, stop QQ'ing and get laid already.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker
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    Trion is responsible for testing the balance but u know they dont do it instead they listen to the bad pvpers so its Trions fault for screwing up the game. 1.2 might solve pve dps problem but it doesnt solve anything for pvp as mages and dps healers are still going to own everyone.
    Last edited by Honeymoon; 05-06-2011 at 05:09 AM.

  8. #8
    Telaran Yunesca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honeymoon View Post
    Trion is responsible for testing the balance but u know they dont do it instead they listen to the bad pvpers so its Trions fault for screwing up the game. 1.2 might solve pve dps problem but it doesnt solve anything for pvp as mages and dps healers are still going to own everyone.
    Trion have a limited number of staff to fully understand the mechanics they create and what combos in the live game can achieve.

    As a gaming company knows, the best testers in the world are in fact the gamers who play, simply down to numbers. Either you can balance a game on 50 members of staff who really should be doing more important jobs like bug fixing, content creating etc or 50,000 gamers who will invariably end up playing the actual game more.

    To the OP, fully agreed.

  9. #9
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricon View Post
    I'll properly get alot of flaming for this thread here. But I really think we have to start owning our own part in nerfs/buffs ect, before we start complaining to the devs. I'll give a few exambles, and many of you are properly going to disagree.

    1) Warriors got some major nerfs/fixes in 1.1. The problem with these nerfs, was that 90% of the complaints came from people who where 49 and down (and yes, Champions were powerhouses in these brackets). But at level 50, even before 1.1 went live, Champons where really one of the weakest PvP callings. They did decent damage, but they could get kited, had absolutely no suvivability, no self healing and so on. If people would let them run around and do damage, they could really dish out some great damage. But pretty much every other soul in the game, can counter them easily if they just took their time to know the calling. This examble here, is really why I hate balancing so early in a game. Most people who complain, are people who doesn't really know the other callings and how to play against them. Champions are very easy to play, and therefore looked overpowered. We have 10+ Clerics in rank 5/5, 10+ Mages in rank 5/6 and a few Rogues aswell. We have 1 Warrior in rank 5 and I'm getting rather close now. Warriors have always been one of the most played classes in any MMO, but in Rift, none really plays them anymore. The playerbase won this one, and totally ruined one of the callings.

    2. My next examble. Before 1.1 went live, Mages complained and complained, that they did to little damage, they where to gimped in PvP ect. What a load of ********. I played with a few Mages before 1.1, who really took their time to know their class and they ripped people apart in PvP and parsed higher in instances than all the other callings. They told me, it took some time, to get the rotations, learn in which order to cast ect.
    But when they got it down, they where doing more than fine. Mages where much harder to master than Warriors, which made a natural learning curve in the game, where we saw Warriors owning in the lower brackets and Mages dying alot. This really was a learn your class thing. Now see, what has happend with Mages. They got some buffs, they didnt need and atm. they are one of the most overpowered classes I have ever seen in any MMO. Chloro/Lock is unkillable, Pyros are 1-2 shotting and immune to cc, with an insane damage reduction, Ele/SC is hammering whole groups down on their own, Dominators I dont even want to start with and I could keep going. All of this is because people come on here and complain, because they haven't took the time to learn their own and other callings properly. The game was way more balanced in beta, than it is now and the playerbase is ruining that balance.

    A little sidenote. I'll bet that after 1.2 Mages are going to reroll Ele/SC and they are getting hit with nerfs next. That spec is really more op than Pyro. I really wonder why we dont see more playing that spec.

    3. We see more and more Rogues popping up in the higher ranks in PvP and totally ripping other callings apart. Try asking a Pyro, what class they hate the most. Try asking any melee soul, who they hate the most. And now they are getting buffed. Guess who will be the next op calling. Rogues are doing insanely good dps in Greenscale/RoS ect. MM is getting some well-deserved buffs. Sab's got hit to hard imo and could really use some minor tuning, so they are viable in PvP and PvE again.

    4. The Templar soul is getting some nerfs, which I personally think is fair and needed. The unkillable Clerics in PvP where really ruining the game alot, so I'm happy with them trying to fix this. Besides that, Clerics are really a calling in need of some love imo. Melee Clerics (Shaman/Druid/(Justicar?)) really could use some buffs, so they are on par with other callings dps. Justicar needs some tuningto their magic mitigation ect. Inq and Caba needs a little love to, making them on par with Rogues, Mages and BM's (only viable raiding soul atm). I haven't played a healer yet, so cant really comment on that, but looking from the sideline, it looks fine to me?

    I beg you all. Think before you complain. Your calling/soul aint supposed to be able to kill every other callling. We have some counter callings/souls here in Rift. And that counter calling/soul you just got destroyed by, guess what. They got a counter calling/soul aswell and get's destroyed by that calling/soul.
    A calling is only op, if they destroy every other calling/soul and dont have any counters.

    The only thing we get out of all these nerfs, that needs fixing some patches later, because they where not really needed, is less content. As long as we keep Trion so focused on nerfing/buffing classes in PvP, they wont have time to give us RvR, new WF's ect. If you want more PvP content, then zip it and let Trion sort it out on their own. Believe me, they do also have people playing this game and giving proper feedback.
    /signed

    i started saying this before 1.1 hit, but 1.1 nerfs were so huge i gave up. now i play this game one month at a time...
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yunesca View Post
    Trion have a limited number of staff to fully understand the mechanics they create and what combos in the live game can achieve.

    As a gaming company knows, the best testers in the world are in fact the gamers who play, simply down to numbers. Either you can balance a game on 50 members of staff who really should be doing more important jobs like bug fixing, content creating etc or 50,000 gamers who will invariably end up playing the actual game.
    This is what the QA dept does. It plays the game and understands possible class balance issues. Any company putting a MMO out has a decent sized QA department whose sole job is to test the game.

    Moreover you have closed alpha testing, open beta etc. You have plenty of opportunity to see class issues and fix them.

    Given that QA's usually have a decent way of communicating up the chain the responsibility does lie with them. Sure there are things that will be missed. Other things that have been completely missed thus far like AP/SP scaling is simply a lack of foresight. Its not like the issues aren't pointed or murky. They are large scale issues and hidden mechanics that are bound to be discovered through simply mechanisms.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. Its like none of the developers have taken a look at history of MMO's and seen what was done right and what was done wrong and why. This game does so many things the wrong way and hasn't learned at all from the history of other MMO's.

    You argument is the equivalent of the classic angry citizen who thinks traffic cops should be out catching drug dealers. The police force has departments that do both, as does Trion.

  11. #11
    Plane Touched
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    You are right that noobs complained and were wrong. However, noobs will always complain and be wrong. "Fireballs and throws are cheap and OP in street fighter!" Capcom never nerfed Ryu into the ground though. It is Trion's job to figure out who is right.

    In the end it is still Trion's fault for not having a competent balance team. Fire that idiot they got from Warhammer.
    Last edited by Warskull; 05-06-2011 at 09:34 AM.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    Champions were overpowered, now they're balanced. It was needed, and most of it came from a bug fix.

    Mages were never underpowered. Now they're overpowered. Post 1.2 they'll still be overpowered, but by a bit less.
    Mages didn't get much of a buff at all. They were always good and Pyros were even more overpowered than they are now when GoS Stun didn't have a DR.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker Datku's Avatar
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    Default The real problem is...

    Trying to balance a game for PvP. Will never happen. In what almost 20 years of MMO history now no game is PvP balanced 100%. Yet the loudest cry babies are PvP players calling for balance. What you change for PvP effects PvE. Changes made to PvE effect PvP.

    PvE and PvP are two different games. They should be approached that way. Maybe that's what the next great MMO should do. Set up a set of abilities that are PvE only and a set that is PvP only. Then either side of the game could be tweaked without totally messing up the other side like now. PvE changes screw things up in PvP, PvP changes screw things up in PvE. No more nerf skill XYZ because it does too much dmg in PvP and the counter claim don't nerf skill XYZ because if you do you will make the class totally worthless in PvE. Each aspect of the game has its own set of skills and abilities. Then and only then could you hope to balance anything without screwing up the other side of the Player vrs X issue.
    Last edited by Datku; 05-06-2011 at 11:53 AM.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Arcshayde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datku View Post
    Trying to balance a game for PvP. Will never happen. In what almost 20 years of MMO history now no game is PvP balanced 100%. Yet the loudest cry babies are PvP players calling for balance. What you change for PvP effects PvE. Changes made to PvE effect PvP.

    PvE and PvP are two different games. They should be approached that way. Maybe that's what the next great MMO should do. Set up a set of abilities that are PvE only and a set that is PvP only. Then either side of the game could be tweaked without totally messing up the other side like now. PvE changes screw things up in PvP, PvP changes screw things up in PvE. No more nerf skill XYZ because it does too much dmg in PvP and the counter claim don't nerf skill XYZ because if you do you will make the class totally worthless in PvE. Each aspect of the game has its own set of skills and abilities. Then and only then could you hope to balance anything without screwing up the other side of the Player vrs X issue.
    I think Trion attempted to do this with the pvp souls, but for the most part didn't make them strong enough to be used over the standard souls.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Datku View Post
    Trying to balance a game for PvP. Will never happen. In what almost 20 years of MMO history now no game is PvP balanced 100%. Yet the loudest cry babies are PvP players calling for balance. What you change for PvP effects PvE. Changes made to PvE effect PvP.

    PvE and PvP are two different games. They should be approached that way. Maybe that's what the next great MMO should do. Set up a set of abilities that are PvE only and a set that is PvP only. Then either side of the game could be tweaked without totally messing up the other side like now. PvE changes screw things up in PvP, PvP changes screw things up in PvE. No more nerf skill XYZ because it does too much dmg in PvP and the counter claim don't nerf skill XYZ because if you do you will make the class totally worthless in PvE. Each aspect of the game has its own set of skills and abilities. Then and only then could you hope to balance anything without screwing up the other side of the Player vrs X issue.
    PvP cry baby... when was the last time a pyro boss mob in an instance spammed "l2p noob" when he 2-shot your MM. Or even better that Riftblade boss mob out kited your Ranger yelling "you need more damage sir rogue!". I guess never. Well this happens in PvP on a regular basis and it does detract a bit from the MMO experience.

    Maybe the parser geeks need to try to beat a HI rather than an AI occasionally to understand what drives the PvP crying...

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