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Thread: Bards and Archons should be Deleted from the Game (Please Read)

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    Telaran Azlaier's Avatar
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    Default Bards and Archons should be Deleted from the Game (Please Read)

    Now, before you think I'm crazy, please hear me out.

    At the current point in the game, there is no need for raid diversity when it comes to roles and specs. This is because two classes provide all of the raid buffs that are necessary to raid. Other than that, the only role you bring is the role with MAXIMUM DPS, as none of the other roles bring anything unique to the raid. Other than one Archon and a Chloro, all of the mages in the raid have to be Stormcaller, for the simple fact that they are top raid DPS. Pyromancers, Dominators, Warlocks, Elementalists, and Necromancers are useless in raids. Other than one or two bards, and maybe a tank, all of the rogues have to be Nightblade, because none of the other specs bring anything unique to the raid. The same goes for warriors; they're either a tank or a Beastmaster.

    Bards and Archons provide all the buffs needed for a raid. Because of this, there's very little raid diversity. Also, because the Archon carries almost all of the most powerful raid buffs, him or her dying is almost as devastating to a raid as the main tank dying.

    In WoW, specs weren't all about max DPS. A Boomkin was needed for a raid, even though his or her DPS wasn't near the top, as they provided caster buffs. Elemental Shamans were, again, not top raid DPS, but were absolutely necessary for a raid comp because they provided all sorts of buffs with their totems and casts. The same goes for Shadow Priests and many other classes and specs. Raids NEEDED people whose spec wasn't top DPS, as they brought unique buffs and bonuses to raids that no other spec could bring.

    While completely deleting Archon or Bard from the game might be a bit drastic, I think spreading their buffs to other roles would be a great thing. It would mean I (along with many other people) can DPS as a mage (or rogue, warrior, or cleric) without absolutely abhorring my spec.

    So please, Trion, do something to create a necessity for raid diversity, even if it doesn't mean deleting two of your roles. Make DPS roles not ONLY about topping DPS charts.

    Thanks for your time. I would appreciate any and all constructive input, ideas, and opinions.

    PS: Please make raid content more difficult. Thanks

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    Ascendant Vayra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azlaier View Post
    Now, before you think I'm crazy, please hear me out.

    At the current point in the game, there is no need for raid diversity when it comes to roles and specs. This is because two classes provide all of the raid buffs that are necessary to raid. Other than that, the only role you bring is the role with MAXIMUM DPS, as none of the other roles bring anything unique to the raid. Other than one Archon and a Chloro, all of the mages in the raid have to be Stormcaller, for the simple fact that they are top raid DPS. Pyromancers, Dominators, Warlocks, Elementalists, and Necromancers are useless in raids. Other than one or two bards, and maybe a tank, all of the rogues have to be Nightblade, because none of the other specs bring anything unique to the raid. The same goes for warriors; they're either a tank or a Beastmaster.

    Bards and Archons provide all the buffs needed for a raid. Because of this, there's very little raid diversity. Also, because the Archon carries almost all of the most powerful raid buffs, him or her dying is almost as devastating to a raid as the main tank dying.

    In WoW, specs weren't all about max DPS. A Boomkin was needed for a raid, even though his or her DPS wasn't near the top, as they provided caster buffs. Elemental Shamans were, again, not top raid DPS, but were absolutely necessary for a raid comp because they provided all sorts of buffs with their totems and casts. The same goes for Shadow Priests and many other classes and specs. Raids NEEDED people whose spec wasn't top DPS, as they brought unique buffs and bonuses to raids that no other spec could bring.

    While completely deleting Archon or Bard from the game might be a bit drastic, I think spreading their buffs to other roles would be a great thing. It would mean I (along with many other people) can DPS as a mage (or rogue, warrior, or cleric) without absolutely abhorring my spec.

    So please, Trion, do something to create a necessity for raid diversity, even if it doesn't mean deleting two of your roles. Make DPS roles not ONLY about topping DPS charts.

    Thanks for your time. I would appreciate any and all constructive input, ideas, and opinions.

    PS: Please make raid content more difficult. Thanks
    For AOE fights SC/Ele and SC/lock are the kings for mages, yes. For ST however, Necro/lock, Pyro/ele(?) are also very viable (though pyro is reliant on standing still a lot more than the others). If none of these specs appeal to you as a mage you can always claim one of the chloro or archon spots. And if those don't suit you either, mage is probably not the right calling for you to raid with. I can't comment on other callings as I'm not familiar with their particular specs for raiding.

    Besides, all souls are not meant to be viable for raiding. And especially not all soul combos. Dominator for instance is useless in raids since just about everything is immune to CC, ele as main spec is also not very good for raiding, while it can be a beast in PvP coupled with Dom.
    -The Unnamed- Defiant
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    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azlaier View Post
    Now, before you think I'm crazy, please hear me out.

    At the current point in the game, there is no need for raid diversity when it comes to roles and specs.

    PS: Please make raid content more difficult. Thanks

    maybe you can kill two birds with one stone.

    Play whatever souls you want, if they arent top dps at least you will have the most fun, and possibly make raid content more difficult at the same time!!

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    Plane Touched Reyo's Avatar
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    I agree with the OP to some extents. Currently, the ideal set up for raids would be Tanks + healers + 2 supports + rest are dps preferably the highest ST spec. It would be better to have unique/more stackable buffs spread out amongst the souls so that many different dps specs will have their place in the raid instead of having many clones.
    Last edited by Reyo; 05-04-2011 at 02:36 PM.

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    Telaran Ashrawr's Avatar
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    I actually felt the complete opposite, any kind of raid composition in WoW died a loong time ago. Fill it with tank/heals and nothing but mages would likely make no difference, and if they're still top of the charts, it'd probably be the ideal setup truth be told.

    I quite like the suppourt souls in Rift, and all the little gimiky group dynamics that Warcraft shafted because the spreadsheets deemed it so.
    Our beautiful, tortured biosphere.

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    EJD
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    I often wonder if I'm playing the same game as a lot of the folks on these boards. I've been on a few raids and what not, no one has demanded that people play this or that, sure we need healers and tanks, but other than that you were pretty much free to play what you want. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but fun is to be had.

    Let me give you a Pro Tip, if you chose to min/max the game then you have painted yourself into a corner, no one has done that to you, you chose to do that.

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    Rift Disciple jsb5249's Avatar
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    Default Support class

    So from what I read, because they are a potent support class, more so than others, they shouldn't be aloud to exist? If they die and people are hurt by it they obviously have some value then, don't they? What purpose would deleting them be if they are actually valuable to a group composition. I think a whole support class actually brings something that most games lack, having more than just the standard healer and tank required. By saying supports need to be deleted, then why not healers, they are valuable as well. Hell why can't everyone, do everything, right? Homogenization in an mmo is just flat out boring. This concept has also existed in past mmos, and remained successful, EQ being the main one to introduce it with the enchanters and bards. As a previous players of multiple MMOs, I am happy to see that we have support classes again, the homogenization that you reference from WoW is just flat out boring.

    And btw, Balance druids and Elemental Shamans can actually top charts, more so than shadow priests.

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    Prophet of Telara NatashaK's Avatar
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    It's really a problem with having instanced PvE. Move the raid out of the instance. Let people bring more if needed. Have there be a chance for PvP. Dont make one tank the focus of the raid. Most of the min/maxing goes away.

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    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
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    I agree, actually.

    Except instead of spreading support skills around to promote diversity, let's just get rid of them so that the only useful thing to do is dps.

    And before you dare claim this doesn't make sense, Trion's already set the precedent by making CC useless in PvP. So clearly this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

    This is why we can't have nice things.

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    Rift Disciple TerryJStroud's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJD View Post
    I often wonder if I'm playing the same game as a lot of the folks on these boards. I've been on a few raids and what not, no one has demanded that people play this or that, sure we need healers and tanks, but other than that you were pretty much free to play what you want. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but fun is to be had.

    Let me give you a Pro Tip, if you chose to min/max the game then you have painted yourself into a corner, no one has done that to you, you chose to do that.
    EJD, I love you.

    That's basically my view. I have fun, play with builds, and don't really care about doing max healing, dps, or whatever. I enjoy my time and if we wipe, we wipe. If I lose in PvP, I try harder next time (considering the bonus for winning isn't *that* amazing that it makes losing suck anyway... so I aim at having FUN!). I'm careful with myself that I don't get so intense into the game where everything becomes obsession and min/maxing.

    Mind you, there's nothing wrong with looking at your build and figuring out how to improve either! That's the point of the soul system. I'm just careful not to pigeon-hole myself 'cause I did that too many times in games. I swore it off after it ruined my fun gaming.
    Asrael, Warrior Guardian of the shard "Shadefallen"

    - Respecting others, Guardian and Defiant alike since launch! -

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    Telaran Azlaier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJD View Post
    I often wonder if I'm playing the same game as a lot of the folks on these boards. I've been on a few raids and what not, no one has demanded that people play this or that, sure we need healers and tanks, but other than that you were pretty much free to play what you want. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but fun is to be had.

    Let me give you a Pro Tip, if you chose to min/max the game then you have painted yourself into a corner, no one has done that to you, you chose to do that.
    I'm in a hardcore guild, so I have no choice but to min/max. Basically, if I want to DPS as a mage, I have to be Stormcaller, otherwise I can't raid.

  12. #12
    Shield of Telara DeadlySight's Avatar
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    For the people that say "Ahh play whatever, who cares, you win some you lose some"

    Have you downed GS? Have you even come close to downing Herald?

    To raid efficiently min/maxing is required

  13. #13
    Telaran Azlaier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryJStroud View Post
    EJD, I love you.

    That's basically my view. I have fun, play with builds, and don't really care about doing max healing, dps, or whatever. I enjoy my time and if we wipe, we wipe. If I lose in PvP, I try harder next time (considering the bonus for winning isn't *that* amazing that it makes losing suck anyway... so I aim at having FUN!). I'm careful with myself that I don't get so intense into the game where everything becomes obsession and min/maxing.

    Mind you, there's nothing wrong with looking at your build and figuring out how to improve either! That's the point of the soul system. I'm just careful not to pigeon-hole myself 'cause I did that too many times in games. I swore it off after it ruined my fun gaming.
    Not to be harsh, but if you're not hardcore raiding, then this thread probably isn't for you.

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    Telaran Azlaier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadlySight View Post
    For the people that say "Ahh play whatever, who cares, you win some you lose some"

    Have you downed GS? Have you even come close to downing Herald?

    To raid efficiently min/maxing is required
    Exactly. QFT

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    Telaran Azlaier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vayra View Post
    For AOE fights SC/Ele and SC/lock are the kings for mages, yes. For ST however, Necro/lock, Pyro/ele(?) are also very viable (though pyro is reliant on standing still a lot more than the others). If none of these specs appeal to you as a mage you can always claim one of the chloro or archon spots. And if those don't suit you either, mage is probably not the right calling for you to raid with. I can't comment on other callings as I'm not familiar with their particular specs for raiding.

    Besides, all souls are not meant to be viable for raiding. And especially not all soul combos. Dominator for instance is useless in raids since just about everything is immune to CC, ele as main spec is also not very good for raiding, while it can be a beast in PvP coupled with Dom.
    No other mage DPS spec comes even close to the single-target DPS of Stormcaller/Necro or Stormcaller/Ele. It's a difference of about 400 to 500 DPS.

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