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Thread: What half-assed CC nerfs & World of Dispells really do

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    Rift Chaser Iselin's Avatar
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    Default What half-assed CC nerfs & World of Dispells really do

    First... yes there is too much CC in this game and something needed to be done. I agree with that and support it, but...

    There are abilities in souls for all classes that have a mixture of damage + some CC and some souls have a lot of CC as an integral part of the soul design (Dom, SC, [put your own favorite CC heavy soul here].) When those souls were designed their DPS was tuned down to account for the fact that they had other goodies that were worth something equivalent to the DPS they were losing...

    So... how can a general decrease in the effectiveness of CC be implemented without at the same time tuning the DPS back up to account for the decreased worth of CC?

    Likewise in our new dispell-happy 1.2 world, how can souls that depend on some critical, class-defining buff to perform their basic function (Chloro's LGV [insert your favorite essential buff here]) not be compensated in some way for the increased frequency of having that buff removed?

    Just seems like a thoughtless, kneejerk, piecemeal way of balancing to me.

    Inquiring minds want to know...
    Last edited by Iselin; 05-04-2011 at 08:21 AM.

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    Ascendant exLupo's Avatar
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    It wouldn't surprise me one iota if 1.3 brought selective purge immunity to role defining buffs. Meins, Cavalier, Void and LGV off the top of my head. Purges are a necessary game component but letting them turn off primary mechanics pending a re-buff is, imo, excessive. Other games with similar purge vs core buff mechanics have come to the same conclusion and made a short list of protected abilities.

    I don't even see a point in asking for it as I don't think there's any way that Trion would -not- do this in the future.
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    I play a cleric and I will say that if purging becomes too easy/frequent I will likely have to rethink my builds because completely purging a Justicar turns it in to a low dps piece of junk. Salvation, Reparation, Meins, and Cavalier are all fairly crucial (to different degrees) for the justicar/whatever to be worth anything. People put points in to Justicar for those buffs most of the time, if they are stripped within 30 seconds of a WF starting and every 30 seconds after then Justicar becomes a waste of points.
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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    The CC change is good, even if it throws off balance a bit in the short term. It was needed for gameplay - being frequently unable to control your own character for long periods of time is aggravating to the majority of the playerbase. Doesn't matter how balanced a game is if it's not fun to play.

    I'm with you 100% on the offensive dispels. It's a bad mechanic, nearly impossible to balance, and confusing for newer or less-aware players. WoW high-level PvP struggled with it for years and became bloated with all kinds of chance-to-dispels, chance-to-resist-dispels, super-dispels, and super-dispel-resistant buffs. It was completely unintuitive, utterly beyond the ken of most of the playerbase, and in the end still never reached a satisfactory balance. The clear better path was to eliminate or severely limit PvP offensive dispels and balance buffs accordingly.

    And why do I get the feeling that all the new dispels are a GoS compromise among the devs? It's like there's one guy who absolutely, completely insists on retaining the game-breaking 100% CC immunity. And the rest of the devs are stuck trying to come up with ways to balance PvP around the premise that pyromancers will always have it. Hence . . . "well maybe we can let other people get CC'd less, too," and "well maybe we should give people more ways to dispel it."

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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    A knee jerk over-reaction to any one game mechanic, especially one that touches all players (CC), can never be good. The game had too much CC, and simply needed to be more specialized. A few specific CC heavy souls was all that was needed, rather than every soul having access to way more CC than it needed. CC had to be changed, and had to be nerfed in some way because this game was out of control with it, but this was not the right way.

    Rather than go back and examine the real problem (too much CC ingrained in every soul), they took the easy way out. It's almost as if the soul designers tried (and failed) to balance each soul on it's own in a 1v1 situation against every other soul. Souls with the most CC did the least damage in general, and vise versa. To just smash CC in this fashion leaves the CC heavy souls ruined.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Rift Chaser Iselin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stay View Post
    And why do I get the feeling that all the new dispels are a GoS compromise among the devs? It's like there's one guy who absolutely, completely insists on retaining the game-breaking 100% CC immunity. And the rest of the devs are stuck trying to come up with ways to balance PvP around the premise that pyromancers will always have it. Hence . . . "well maybe we can let other people get CC'd less, too," and "well maybe we should give people more ways to dispel it."
    I didn't include that in my OP just because we've had so much written about GOS already, but that's also my guess: it's all about dispelling GOS and all collateral damage to the game be damned.

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    Ascendant TheLeviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iselin View Post
    I didn't include that in my OP just because we've had so much written about GOS already, but that's also my guess: it's all about dispelling GOS and all collateral damage to the game be damned.
    Pretty much. "Lets put overpowered buff strippers in the game without regard to the fallout of that, AND hand everyone CC immunity so they shut up about GoS!" I like to think that's not how the change came about, but from the outside looking in it certainly appears that way.
    Red ball + fulminate + really craptacular dom/pyro spec trying to hard cast transmog and pray your spell lands before some squirrel punching moron eats your controlled opp proc = +1 board warrior keeping mages from being realistically balanced in PVE or PVP. 1.0-1.2's best combo in the game. RIP FOTM Pyro rollers

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeviathan View Post
    Pretty much. "Lets put overpowered buff strippers in the game without regard to the fallout of that, AND hand everyone CC immunity so they shut up about GoS!" I like to think that's not how the change came about, but from the outside looking in it certainly appears that way.
    A better fix would be having a 'reapply cd' on GoS, as opposed to the insta MM ranged lolpurge. /shrug

    As exLupo has suggested, I'm expecting a few tweaks to purges and what they're able to 'strip' come 1.3.
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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exLupo View Post
    It wouldn't surprise me one iota if 1.3 brought selective purge immunity to role defining buffs. Meins, Cavalier, Void and LGV off the top of my head
    Yeah, it's a pity we'll have to wait to see this. I hope the complaints pile up quickly so it gets addresed in a reasonable fashion.

    To go a step further, there's really no reason for those to even be buffs instead of passive abilities. I can't think of a scenario where people would want to NOT have their role-defining ability up. The only result of making it a buff instead of a passive is that it uses up a hotbar slot, lets it get purged, and lets you forget to recast it when it expires.

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    I think purging is a great way how to enhance strategy in pvp. I am not sure handing several spammable/passive purges is a way to go to be honest. I think something in line of "Purge 3 buffs from the target, those purged skills cant be recast for another 10 secs" with like 20 sec cd. And not something like MM 1 sec purge laugh.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iselin View Post
    First... yes there is too much CC in this game and something needed to be done. I agree with that and support it, but...

    There are abilities in souls for all classes that have a mixture of damage + some CC and some souls have a lot of CC as an integral part of the soul design (Dom, SC, [put your own favorite CC heavy soul here].) When those souls were designed their DPS was tuned down to account for the fact that they had other goodies that were worth something equivalent to the DPS they were losing...

    So... how can a general decrease in the effectiveness of CC be implemented without at the same time tuning the DPS back up to account for the decreased worth of CC?

    Likewise in our new dispell-happy 1.2 world, how can souls that depend on some critical, class-defining buff to perform their basic function (Chloro's LGV [insert your favorite essential buff here]) not be compensated in some way for the increased frequency of having that buff removed?

    Just seems like a thoughtless, kneejerk, piecemeal way of balancing to me.

    Inquiring minds want to know...
    I can't answer your questions. What I can do is applaud you for making a down to earth, reasonable post that takes into consideration an issue a lot of people are worried about with the coming of 1.2. This just feels like such a massive balance oversight, the more I think about it and hear about it, the more it seems like it has to be a joke that they would implement such obviously broken changes. This will change the game in such a way that it will completely alter balance to a stage it might have been at when they were first drawing up the soul ideas for each calling.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stay View Post
    The CC change is good, even if it throws off balance a bit in the short term.
    No no no, this will break certain classes more thoroughly than I can ever recall any class being broken in any game, ever.

    I have read posts that accurately portray situations in which souls such as Storm Caller actually actively harm their team when they use 2/3 of their abilities. Any CC that is not top of the line for its respective field will, 9/10 times, be a complete mockery of soul diversity. Any stun less than 5 seconds, any silence less than 5 seconds, any snare less than 70%, etc... etc... take it off your bar before you screw your team over.

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faeyre View Post
    No no no, this will break certain classes more thoroughly than I can ever recall any class being broken in any game, ever.
    This made me smile. Haven't been around the MMO rodeo too many times, have you? No offense

    On a semi-related note, I'd like to say again how wonderful it is to be able to possess four (soon five) wildly different sets of abilities which I can change between, for no cost, at the push of a button. If a couple of those sets turn out not to be good for pvp . . . well, I'll push the button. For some of the newer generation: let's just say this wasn't always the case in the past.

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    Anything that starts to topple mages and clerics from near godmode is a positive move.

    And whilst you're being 'purged' you're not being dps'd. So just recast and move on - its another level in who gets the upper hand. Now you have damage v healing, purge v buff, cc v vbreaker/immunity.

    Life just got more complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    Anything that starts to topple mages and clerics from near godmode is a positive move.

    And whilst you're being 'purged' you're not being dps'd. So just recast and move on - its another level in who gets the upper hand. Now you have damage v healing, purge v buff, cc v vbreaker/immunity.

    Life just got more complicated.
    Good 'purgers' will 'purge' targets that are being DPS'd. I'm glad to hear that we don't have anything to fear from you, though.
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