+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: pyromancer vs champion - pvp comparison and why champions need a pvp boost

  1. #1
    Soulwalker Ashnod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    11

    Exclamation pyromancer vs champion - pvp comparison and why champions need a pvp boost

    both are supposed to be 'glass cannon' souls, but when it comes to PvP, the champion has been toned down so badly that it doesn't even suffer a comparison. Let's try anyway:

    1. PVP dmg
    • champion: nerfed to 6% dmg vs players + Tactical Strike at rank 5 with 25% chance to apply 1 stack of 5% dmg up to 25% (cmon, what champion lives that long to apply 5 stacks!!)
    • pyro: 15% dmg vs players + 30% more crit dmg at rank 4

    2. finishers below 30% health
    • champion - deathblow: needs 3 points, on global cd - around 1200 dmg and fails to activate half of the times
    • pyro - inferno: doesn't need charges, off global cd - 1500-2500 dmg

    3. Critical chance:
    • champion: dex based - secondary stat - 12-14%
    • pyro: int based - primary stat - 20-22%

    4. Bonus from stats:
    • champion: 10 AP = 1 dps , skills don't scale well with it
    • pyro: 5 SP = 1 dps, skills scale too well with it

    5. Survivability
    • champion: needs 1 healer constantly holding his hand while he's fighting in close-combat in heavy AoE rain and getting killed as indirect target
    • pyro: 30m range, multiple shields and dmg reduction skills, can survive comfortably unless ganked by 2-3 players

    Bottom line:

    In warfronts at lvl 50, i am one of a few warriors that still play and I see fewer everyday. Even for PvE there is a lack of warrior tanks since they all seem to have re-rolled.
    I know i could go riftblade/void/pally ( actually i do most of the times now) but i started the warrior class expecting a high burst melee with low survivability in pvp. The low survivability is there all-right, but the burst seems to have vanished.

    Since the champs were nerfed repeatedly before fixing the armor penetration skills, when this was fixed what was left was a weak class, depended on spamming SLI and praying nobody will notice him while he's jumping an unsuspecting pvp rank 1 enemy

    Please consider at least increasing the PvP dmg from 6% to a decent value, change the Weapon Specialization to the previous value of 1.7 per point up to 50% and fix the AP scaling so all that STR we stack will actually show for something more then increasing the parry by few points.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    226

    Default

    Can't compare to an OP class.(pyro)
    I personally think if they scale spell power with attack power half the balancing problems is over.
    I am a rouge class and i can't hit over 1k unless i use 5 point finisher finalblow.
    Now i see clerics instant casting for 2.3k easily with stacking spellpower and crits.
    I even see the low warter jet damage wardens get hit for 500 without crit.
    Tell me something is not wrong there?

  3. #3
    Shield of Telara ComaXO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Posts
    682

    Default

    Once upon a time this game advertised how selecting one of the 4 main callings wouldn't restrict you to the norm... Well we've seen warlord erased in beta due to once strong support group buffs... Rip... Then we had the anti-caster in the void knight who has basically been erased... Then we had the super squishy battle Mage in RiftBlade which still has it's strengths in melée but is required to use para for laughable ranged dps. We had the bursty champ ... Nerfed when it was 50% at best of the current pyro burst. Had a sturdy paladin but they are working on ****ing that up... Reaver got Nerfed because it healed against normal world mobs to well and became one of the 10-15 trees that can walk away from normal mob pve with full life but due to it being a warrior it was uncalled for!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by chopstx View Post
    Assumption

    I see...I mistook your R-Pness as complaining. I will don my helm and tassets and take my leave. As sunlight escapes, casting shadows across the rocky wasteland, I'm reminded of how long the days of my youth seemed at that time. A better time. Now though, as the day fades, I will cherish these last few moments with waffles.

  4. #4
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    71

    Default

    right now champion/paragon is very good for pvp. i am able to crit up to 2600 with deathblow. however, going past 38 points is just a waste, and specing with anything other then paragon severely gimps your damage.

    ive tried specing up to aura of vengeful wrath, but its just not worth it. you can get more crits/higher damage with a lot more utility using paragon with champ.

  5. #5
    Ascendant phoenixfire82's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    1,774

    Default

    champion needs absolutely nothing. r6 champion/para is absolutely devastating on the battlefield. pyro need further toning down, though.

  6. #6
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    76

    Default

    You gotta experiment with souls more man. Play rift blade/paragon/ vindicator, youll love it. You will have both ranged dps and melee dps around the same( melee a lil bit stronger), and survivability is pretty good too. Most importantly, you are benefiting from both riftblade and paragon damage increases (the ones that give 1.7% more dmg per point spent.) http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0c...0bsMGtz.Vxxz0V

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara Corian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,186

    Default

    6. champion can actually move around while it fights.

    thx, come again.
    This is why we can't have nice things.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    153

    Default

    Pyros are overpowered and thus not an acceptable benchmark.
    Constable Ashaya the Daredevil
    <Libertatis Causa> - Feenring (EU)

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser MrGrimm999's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    357

    Default

    There are so many things wrong with your comparison it is hilarious, so lets go about debunking them shall we:


    Quote Originally Posted by Ashnod View Post
    both are supposed to be 'glass cannon' souls, but when it comes to PvP, the champion has been toned down so badly that it doesn't even suffer a comparison. Let's try anyway:
    Right there you are wrong, a plate wearing class is never a glass cannon no matter how you try to spin it, they will always have more hp and more mitigation than clothies.

    1. PVP dmg
    • champion: nerfed to 6% dmg vs players + Tactical Strike at rank 5 with 25% chance to apply 1 stack of 5% dmg up to 25% (cmon, what champion lives that long to apply 5 stacks!!)
    • pyro: 15% dmg vs players + 30% more crit dmg at rank 4
    You are immediately assuming that the champ will die faster than any other 'glass cannon' which is just plain not true.

    Also, 30% more crit damage at rank 4? No one even uses that spec because they want the ability to instant crit every 3 minutes. So this argument is against a spec that no one uses, and is under the assumption that all pyros are rank 4 pvp, great start to your comparison.

    2. finishers below 30% health
    • champion - deathblow: needs 3 points, on global cd - around 1200 dmg and fails to activate half of the times
    • pyro - inferno: doesn't need charges, off global cd - 1500-2500 dmg
    First off, you should note that inferno does not do 1500-2500 damage unless you have red buff, so lets just make it more realistic numbers, 700-1400 depending on gear and spec.

    Additionally, you 'forgot' to mention that deathblow doesn't have a cooldown and inferno does? Forget to mention things that count eh?

    3. Critical chance:
    • champion: dex based - secondary stat - 12-14%
    • pyro: int based - primary stat - 20-22%
    What about that champs have an easy access to instant crit every 1 minute, that will always be used on titans strike, their most damaging ability?

    4. Bonus from stats:
    • champion: 10 AP = 1 dps , skills don't scale well with it
    • pyro: 5 SP = 1 dps, skills scale too well with it
    Uh, are you completely forgetting that you have abilties that scale with weapon damage??? Our spells do not read "does weapon damage + xxx spell damage", all we have is our spellpower. Moreover, you also get additional autoattack damage with this for free, whereas we do not. With both of these things taken into consideration, it would be highly unfair if we didnt get more scaling from SP than AP.

    5. Survivability
    • champion: needs 1 healer constantly holding his hand while he's fighting in close-combat in heavy AoE rain and getting killed as indirect target
    • pyro: 30m range, multiple shields and dmg reduction skills, can survive comfortably unless ganked by 2-3 players
    Pyros have an ability that lowers their maximum health permanently just for taking it, most pyros dont have more than 4k health. We need a healer holding our hand if we want to live more than 10 seconds as well. Multiple shields? We have 1 shield that we have to give up our precious GoS to get, where are you getting all these lies from? Dmg reduciton skills, by skills do you mean 1 from GoS? Oh you are going to count detaunt from the pvp tree, which other callings can get as well.

    Bottom line:

    You are trying to spin it that you are just so pathetic and weak and can't do anything without a pocket healer while pyros are on a rampage by themselves with no healing whatsoever. These are blatently false claims, and you aren't fooling anyone. All of your comparisons leave out important details or are just plain false.
    Last edited by MrGrimm999; 05-03-2011 at 07:57 AM.

  10. #10
    Telaran
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    63

    Default

    First, let me say that I agree a comparison to Pyros may not be ideal, depending on how Trion ends up balancing that soul. But if Trion's vision is to increase mitigation through Valor and leave Pyro damage as is, then it may be a fair benchmark.

    In general, I agree with the OP and think that this is part of a larger syndrome, present in PvE and PvP, of not grasping the advantage provided by range compared to melee.

    I'd like quickly to address the comments by MrGrimm999:

    -This horse corpse gets beaten alot, but armor provides no protection vs. nonphysical damage, and while there *is* an advantage in physical mitigation, it is a modest difference that can be more than made up for by mitigation abilities that most specs have and DPS Champions don't.

    -I agree with MrGrimm that the PvP soul numbers here don't appear in many resonable specs.

    -MrGrimm's points are valid ones, but there remains a damage difference and the +/-GCD difference. More important, I think, ais the range difference; but these are very different abilities as MrGrim points out and so hard to compare 1-1.

    -In my experience, a Champ's crit will be a little higher (than 12%), and a Mage's can be significantly higher (than 22%). Guranteed crit, even every 30 sec, only goes so far toward making up a difference of at least 2x in crit probability. People often make complaints or suggestions based on that one big number they see, without paying attention to how often it's likely to occur. This issue has added fuel to the calls to nerf Pyromancers, and I think was largely responsible for the overzealous Saboteur nerf.

    -I agree with MrGrimm here, but think it would be nice if there were more reward for improving attack power generally. If that means a reduction in base damage, so be it. But that's a different topic; the point is that simply doubling AP contribution would likely amount to a larger-than-needed buff.

    -There may have been spin in the OP, but this doesn't change the fact that range provides an extraordinary advantage in survivability. Another poster pointed out thet Champions can move, but the necessity of following your target is more of a liability than an advantage.
    Last edited by turbodog01; 05-03-2011 at 08:34 AM.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Nsain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turbodog01 View Post
    First, let me say that I agree a comparison to Pyros may not be ideal, depending on how Trion ends up balancing that soul. But if Trion's vision is to increase mitigation through Valor and leave Pyro damage as is, then it may be a fair benchmark.

    In general, I agree with the OP and think that this is part of a larger syndrome, present in PvE and PvP, of not grasping the advantage provided by range compared to melee.

    I'd like quickly to address the comments by MrGrimm999:

    -This horse corpse gets beaten alot, but armor provides no protection vs. nonphysical damage, and while there *is* an advantage in physical mitigation, it is a modest difference that can be more than made up for by mitigation abilities that most specs have and DPS Champions don't.

    -I agree with MrGrimm that the PvP soul numbers here don't appear in many resonable specs.

    -MrGrimm's points are valid ones, but there remains a damage difference and the +/-GCD difference. More important, I think, ais the range difference; but these are very different abilities as MrGrim points out and so hard to compare 1-1.

    -In my experience, a Champ's crit will be a little higher (than 12%), and a Mage's can be significantly higher (than 22%). Guranteed crit, even every 30 sec, only goes so far toward making up a difference of at least 2x in crit probability. People often make complaints or suggestions based on that one big number they see, without paying attention to how often it's likely to occur. This issue has added fuel to the calls to nerf Pyromancers, and I think was largely responsible for the overzealous Saboteur nerf.

    -I agree with MrGrimm here, but think it would be nice if there were more reward for improving attack power generally. If that means a reduction in base damage, so be it. But that's a different topic; the point is that simply doubling AP contribution would likely amount to a larger-than-needed buff.

    -There may have been spin in the OP, but this doesn't change the fact that range provides an extraordinary advantage in survivability. Another poster pointed out thet Champions can move, but the necessity of following your target is more of a liability than an advantage.
    Atleast someone on these boards is thinking reasonably. I love my champion but at the same time I get face rolled by the 70% of pyromancers that fill the servers these days. The classic response is "QQ" "umadbro" or some other remark by the 12 year old behind the computer screen. Class balancing is always an issue, as I played Warhammer as a Bright Wizard at the beginning (when I saw how ridiculously OP they were I rerolled Marauder of all classes). Gersh is, as many put it, a complete and utter ****** when it comes to correct balancing. You destroyed one game mate, give it a rest. Back on topic however, good post, and please pyromancers don't just come into threads spreading your "LOL I ROLLED YOU NOOB" it truthfully gets everyone no where.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Corian View Post
    6. champion can actually move around while it fights.

    thx, come again.
    ...2m vs 30m range. Wonder why.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker Ashnod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Corian View Post
    6. champion can actually move around while it fights.

    thx, come again.
    why would a pyro move from his precious GoS in patch 1.1 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrimm999 View Post
    Right there you are wrong, a plate wearing class is never a glass cannon no matter how you try to spin it, they will always have more hp and more mitigation than clothies.
    It was repeated over and over that plate doesn't offer any dmg mitigation vs magic while cloth armor does against physical. So your 25% physical mitigation is better then our 0 magic.

    As a dps warrior your HP is around 5.5-6k, that's what, 1k more then pyros? nothing an instant Flame Bolt can't fix.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrimm999 View Post
    You are immediately assuming that the champ will die faster than any other 'glass cannon' which is just plain not true.

    Also, 30% more crit damage at rank 4? No one even uses that spec because they want the ability to instant crit every 3 minutes. So this argument is against a spec that no one uses, and is under the assumption that all pyros are rank 4 pvp, great start to your comparison.
    I know that champs die faster then any other glass cannons since I play one and we have no dmg mitigation skills. I also know that half of the pyros are not rank 4 yet due to the fact that a lot re-rolled and that's the scary part


    Anyway this is not a cry to nerf pyros, some of their issues will be fixed in 1.2 patch. It's more like a request to bring the champion soul in par with the other burst dps souls.

    Someone was saying that rank 6 champions are devastating. Sure, if you have a good team with 3-4 clerics and if the other team has no more then 2 mages and if most of them are rank 1-4, champions are stil capable to stay alive and do nice damage. But since the planets are not aligning like that most of the time, you might as well go ahead and wear a sign saying 'Free kill'

    I am only pvp rank 5 defiant on one of the most populated servers in NA playing a lot against rank 5-6 clerics/rogues/mages and sometimes warriors and I can say that there is no way i can survive against any rogue/mage/dps cleric rank 5-6 while in champion/vindi/paragon spec. All those classes have enough dmg mitigation skills or heals that can compensate for my puny physical damage.
    Please note I am talking about level 50 and rank 5-6 PvP so please stick to those examples as eventually everybody will get there and that's what we need to balance.

    When the 30% dmg reduction from the full rank 6 set will be in place there is no way that the physical damage of a champion enhanced by 6 (!!)% pvp damage will do more then amuse them and frustrate us. That's why I am asking for a re-evaluation of the PvP dmg skills for the warriors (so no impact on the precious PvE) and of the champion's premature nerfed skills.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    111

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrimm999 View Post
    Right there you are wrong, a plate wearing class is never a glass cannon no matter how you try to spin it, they will always have more hp and more mitigation than clothies.

    You are immediately assuming that the champ will die faster than any other 'glass cannon' which is just plain not true.


    Does this guy even play Rift PVP?

  15. #15
    Plane Touched
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    208

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashnod View Post
    both are supposed to be 'glass cannon' souls, but when it comes to PvP, the champion has been toned down so badly that it doesn't even suffer a comparison. Let's try anyway:

    1. PVP dmg
    • champion: nerfed to 6% dmg vs players + Tactical Strike at rank 5 with 25% chance to apply 1 stack of 5% dmg up to 25% (cmon, what champion lives that long to apply 5 stacks!!)
    • pyro: 15% dmg vs players + 30% more crit dmg at rank 4

    2. finishers below 30% health
    • champion - deathblow: needs 3 points, on global cd - around 1200 dmg and fails to activate half of the times
    • pyro - inferno: doesn't need charges, off global cd - 1500-2500 dmg

    3. Critical chance:
    • champion: dex based - secondary stat - 12-14%
    • pyro: int based - primary stat - 20-22%

    4. Bonus from stats:
    • champion: 10 AP = 1 dps , skills don't scale well with it
    • pyro: 5 SP = 1 dps, skills scale too well with it

    5. Survivability
    • champion: needs 1 healer constantly holding his hand while he's fighting in close-combat in heavy AoE rain and getting killed as indirect target
    • pyro: 30m range, multiple shields and dmg reduction skills, can survive comfortably unless ganked by 2-3 players

    Bottom line:

    In warfronts at lvl 50, i am one of a few warriors that still play and I see fewer everyday. Even for PvE there is a lack of warrior tanks since they all seem to have re-rolled.
    I know i could go riftblade/void/pally ( actually i do most of the times now) but i started the warrior class expecting a high burst melee with low survivability in pvp. The low survivability is there all-right, but the burst seems to have vanished.

    Since the champs were nerfed repeatedly before fixing the armor penetration skills, when this was fixed what was left was a weak class, depended on spamming SLI and praying nobody will notice him while he's jumping an unsuspecting pvp rank 1 enemy

    Please consider at least increasing the PvP dmg from 6% to a decent value, change the Weapon Specialization to the previous value of 1.7 per point up to 50% and fix the AP scaling so all that STR we stack will actually show for something more then increasing the parry by few points.
    You're a warrior dude. You have the best Armor in the game, the best weapon, do the most damage in PVE settings & you can tank if you want. If all that fails, then you still have Flamespear :P

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts