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Thread: Class Advocates?

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    Sword of Telara CyclopsSlayer's Avatar
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    Default Class Advocates?

    One of the things Vanguard got right early on were the advocates to test and handle feedback for each of the classes.
    With all the possible combos in Rift something like that might well work here as well.

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    Plane Touched Jorm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyclopsSlayer View Post
    One of the things Vanguard got right early on were the advocates to test and handle feedback for each of the classes.
    With all the possible combos in Rift something like that might well work here as well.
    As long as they know what they're doing, I see no problem. WAR had something similar, unfortunately some of the people had no clue how certain basic abilities of their classes functioned, even after 6 months of playing the game at that point.

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    Official Rift Founding Fan Site Operator Sornin's Avatar
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    I am rather ambivalent on the matter. On the one hand, having a dedicated individual who knows what he or she is doing helping to catalogue issues, report them, and act as agent for a class can be valuable. On the other hand, it has the potential to be an extremely biased system, where issues that the advocate feel are crucial get handled, and all others are ignored.

    I think the developers should ultimately be the ones who understand their game enough and are in touch with the fans enough to monitor how each soul is going. If they can be assisted by some members in the community, that is fine, just do not hand said member the keys to the kingdom and call it a day.

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    Rift Disciple Vespers's Avatar
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    Generally a specific fan site usually pops up which cater to a particular class. Something like RiftRogues.com, RiftWarriors.com, ets. From those sites, a core group of players will generally stand out as class experts. This has happened in every single MMO that I have ever played for the past 11 years. I would tend to use they experts as a resourse rather than one particular person.
    In Vanguard there were a couple of class leads who thought that they could speak on behalf of every player of that class. I don't believe that is right. I am a fan of the devs going to to specific web sites and doing his own research and posting his own questions in order to better improve the classes.
    Also, keep in mind that only about 5% of players ever log into fan sites or official forums, so there is really no way a class lead can realistically represent the majority of players of a specific class.

    Now, what I would LOVE to see in an ingame system that would lets devs post Polls.
    For example, when a player selects his Cleric class from his character list, then all the Dev Polls relating to the Cleric class are loaded up for the player to see. This way the Devs can get a better idea from polling the whole community instead of just the 5% who visit the forums.

  5. #5
    Shield of Telara Osho's Avatar
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    Default class leads

    I remember the VG Class Advocates or I think they were called Class Leads.... on the one side it was an interesting source and experience but at least i would not prefer such leads for Rift. And imagine how many class leads Rift would have class sites are welcome and IMO it should be Trion's job to check for specific class feedback.

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    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
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    Tricky matter, trouble usually starts on how and when these people are selected, like it or not these people have a potential to have a huge impact on which direction the class / soul goes. This isn't nececary a bad thing but VG had some bad class leads (and some great ones).

    In some cases I think the class would have been better off without a class lead, ALL that aside it will be rather tricky with so many souls. I could imagine it beeing a nightmare to communicate with all these people on soul changes. I've always been a huge supporter of developers playing their own game and knowing the classes as good as players. This might not always be possible for every soul in RIFT but I do think in many cases (depending on the amount of devs leaving after launch) this is the ideal situation.

    Then again I think there is a huge gap between how a class is designed to be played and how it is actually played by the players. Both visions might not always match.

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    Champion of Telara g0kuenuan's Avatar
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    helpful players will always create "BUILDS" and "HOW TO PLAY" for the classes they like and play
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    Plane Walker Perros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyclopsSlayer View Post
    One of the things Vanguard got right early on were the advocates to test and handle feedback for each of the classes.
    With all the possible combos in Rift something like that might well work here as well.
    Please, please, no official class leads. The Vanguard class lead system was a total disaster. My personal opinion of course. Anyone remember the tank wars, the Shaman vs Bloodmage threads, the Monk nerfs, all partly caused by class leads with personal or guild agendas.

    I see no value whatsoever in representation by an individual who is not affiliated with the company and has zero authority within the player base.

    That doesn't mean that Trion shouldn't listen to players and even occasionally follow player requests but ultimately it is their job to understand and balance game systems based on their internal testing.

    On the good side, souls don't always have to be totally balanced in all aspects because players have the freedom to chooses specialized souls for soloing, grouping, raiding, etc.
    Last edited by Perros; 08-04-2010 at 04:21 PM.

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    Plane Walker Goremarr's Avatar
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    Whether it is officially designated or not, one person who plays a certain class invariably becomes the de facto class lead. People will go to them for advice and with ideas or suggestions that they think this person could word and present effectively to the developers and the community in general. It's kind of nice to have that one person for each class who represents an entire section of the community. The problem comes in when they have an agenda or they use the designation as weight to throw around to add to their e-street cred.

    As long as there is some form of vetting involved and it's not a matter of someone from Trion saying, "Hey, I know that guy from my guild in Everquest" or, "Hey, this guy was part of one of the top guilds worldwide in WoW, he should be a class lead" then I think that the idea of class leads could go very well. We definitely have the community and the kind of relationship with Trion at this point to be able to pull it off successfully.

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    Rift Disciple Kalagrim's Avatar
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    I think having Class Leads could realistically happen in Rift and I think they would do quite well in a community like ours. In Vanguard I remember there being a few class leads per class to discuss amongst themselves and test mechanics, which I think would be quite suitable here as well. In a game like Rift where people will likely spread their points across multiple classes, I think having a couple people examine one class in particular and how it reacts with others within their calling is important for balancing the game. One thing to keep in mind is that Rift is going with standard souls and heroic souls, so balancing the power difference between the two will be important job. With that in mind though, keeping that difference noticeable between the two types of souls while not making it purely overpowering will be quite a job handle if we don't go in with a class lead system of some sort. In the end, even with one developer tackling each calling for balance, they will still need a hand from the community since we tend to break the game in ways they never expect.

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  11. #11
    Plane Walker Berjah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sornin View Post
    I am rather ambivalent on the matter. On the one hand, having a dedicated individual who knows what he or she is doing helping to catalogue issues, report them, and act as agent for a class can be valuable. On the other hand, it has the potential to be an extremely biased system, where issues that the advocate feel are crucial get handled, and all others are ignored.

    I think the developers should ultimately be the ones who understand their game enough and are in touch with the fans enough to monitor how each soul is going. If they can be assisted by some members in the community, that is fine, just do not hand said member the keys to the kingdom and call it a day.
    One of the reasons vg PvP died a horribly slow and painful death was because many of the original class leads didn't like PvP. Some didn't even bother testing changes for PvP.

    I'd like to see a system where there was like 75 - 100 dev-selected "Game Advocates" =)



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    Rift Master DSWBeef's Avatar
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    I remember this in AoC forums. The advocates answered noob questions and made class guides. But i dunno how this would work in RIft with the soul system, it would prolly have to be a calling advocate.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Maybe make it part of a political system in game or on the forums with voting/nominating along with the ability to vote someone new into the position. It would be more of a majority rules type of appointment that would be able to speak for the masses.

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Caracarn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berjah View Post
    One of the reasons vg PvP died a horribly slow and painful death was because many of the original class leads didn't like PvP. Some didn't even bother testing changes for PvP.

    I'd like to see a system where there was like 75 - 100 dev-selected "Game Advocates" =)
    Vanguard was never designed as a PvP game and most of the Class Leads I knew were hardcore raiders. The Class Lead idea has its pros and cons, but arguing with Vanguard PvP against it really misses the point, imho.
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    Rift Master Faelor's Avatar
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    I think this community could pull it off, but the class leads of another game that is referenced quite often on these boards (something-guard: Saga of Heroes, I forget) left a bitter taste in my mouth.

    As someone who got caught in the mix and was more often than not confused with the primary Ranger class lead due to being so outspoken during beta (and creating the official affiliated ranger site, Vanguard Rangers, RIP), it was interesting. I got invited to a lot of the conversations in one form or another (private in-game meetings, forums, instant messages, you name it), so you could say I'm a bit burnt on the idea.

    Some leads did their job, or at least initially did. As the game progressed through beta and post-launch, many lost their vision (awful pun, I know) of what their exactly was. Some went blind right get the bet go and new leaders were selected, while some maintained their so-called title and filtered only their concerns and blatantly ignored their community.

    I would like to think if there is any community that is in the pre-release stage that could pull it off, it would have to be this one. Trion would really have to make some wise decisions on who to pick, what their duty is, and ensuring it gets done.
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