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Thread: Do we lack the tools to kill clerics in 1.2?

  1. #1
    Telaran stavos's Avatar
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    Default Do we lack the tools to kill clerics in 1.2?

    No. No we don't. It is true that valor will increase their survivability, and that their survivability is very good all ready. But I think a lot of that survivability comes from people thinking the ONLY way to kill a cleric is to burst him down. And that's the main reason why the valor buff would make them OMGGODMODE. However, there are other tools that everyone seems to forget. Rift isn't the first MMO where simply attempting to burst a healer down has proven ineffective. The trick to killing healers (both chloros and clerics) lies in using abilities *specifically tailored to weaken, disrupt, and harass healers.* For instance, a dom mage can put up priest's lament, which is bad. Then he can make things worse and put up a debuff that decreases the healing the cleric receives by 50%. These two alone will make healing himself remarkably difficult. Now if a dps gets on that cleric, it could be lights out, especially if that dpser is smart too. Perhaps it's a warrior that let's the cast times go until the last second (to waste the clerics time AND give priest's lament a chance to kick in) and then interrupts. Of course, wanting to save the healer, we get a rogue on the warrior, that the dom then insta squirrels. This is mostly put in so I don't have to listen to 50 posts on why I gave a 2v1 scenario. Now, the cleric is doing badly at this point, and can't waste that global to get the rogue out of the sheep. He desperately casts a short quick healing spell, but it's interrupted by priest's lament. The warrior is watching those debuffs because he knows *that's really important in pvp* and just a split second before that silence wears off, he throws out a stun. The cleric is madly slamming his "next spell instant" button, but it's too late, they got him too low, now he's dead.

    This is only one scenario of thousands that can be used to take down a cleric. Every class has tools to help with this. Nightblades have a healing debuff, assassins can help stuns and (dare I mention it) the poison from the pvp tree which slows casting. Warriors have interrupts and stuns, mages have silences. It only takes 32 points in warlock to get a stun and a silence. Wait till a big heal is *almost* done and slam 'em with a stun. When that stun wears off, nail 'em with silence. It might not kill 'em, but they sure won't be in a good place, and if they were healing someone else, they're probably dead by now.

    The point of this post is that valor isn't the end of the ability to kill clerics. Pyros that were bursting them down may be a thing of the past, but that was never the only strategy. What if you have a pyro with his still sufficient burst with someone else who knows how to interrupt and stun? Bursting on top of control is deadly.

    Instead of complaining about how unfair life is that you can't one shot the healer (and thank god, or they'd all stop playing), think about other ways to make things seem unfair to them. If you think healing is the biggest threat on the battlefield, then tailor your spec to counter it, and be a healer killer. And most importantly, don't be afraid to ask other players to assist you, whether you're soloing or grouping with friends. There's no shame in using communication and strategy to remove a battlefield threat. Maybe teamwork doesn't make your e-peen grow, but no one likes a giant bloated e-blood gorged e-peen anyway. Trust me.

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara
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    to sum it up you need a group of Dom/Champion/Nightblade
    in order to kill 1 healer.

    sounds good (i dont think you can even find a dom these days)

  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Good post.

    What many people dont understand is that pvp is a team game. The uber dps types want dps to be the be-all end-all to every problem and every enemy, rather than work with a team that has complementary skills. When they cant quickly burn down a cleric they get mad, rather than think about their character and their abilities, and spend points on abilities that would kill that cleric much more quickly (silence/cc/healing debuffs) or work with teammates who did. They would rather brag about their epeen dps then do what it takes to win the battle. In fact, they are so caught up with the dps parsing that it probably doesnt even occur to them to try another approach.

    The sad part of your post is that the good teams already know this (usually i can tell within seconds of the battle's beginning if I am facing a good team that uses other skills and focus fire, or an ad hoc team that doesnt)... and the bad players and teams wont listen because they just dont want to hear your message.
    Eol, Chloromancer and Justinian, Inquistor, Guardians of Faeblight.
    Previous incarnations include: Camring and Camran, SWTOR; Ceol & Duri - LotRO; Eol - L2; Kili - WoW; Camring - SWG; Justinian, Camring - DAoC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodisplay View Post
    to sum it up you need a group of Dom/Champion/Nightblade
    in order to kill 1 healer.

    sounds good (i dont think you can even find a dom these days)
    Uh, no, it jst means that a balanced team with complementary skiills that uses its non-dps skills will beat a dps-focused team 9 times out of 10, but the dps kings dont know that and dont want to hear it.
    Eol, Chloromancer and Justinian, Inquistor, Guardians of Faeblight.
    Previous incarnations include: Camring and Camran, SWTOR; Ceol & Duri - LotRO; Eol - L2; Kili - WoW; Camring - SWG; Justinian, Camring - DAoC

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara
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    pvp is not a team game when all you can do is PUGS.
    seems a bit stupid to arrange a team for pvp,the max i do is to queue with 2 school buddies.

    arenas worth it since rating is precious,favor you gain but cant lose.


    also if its a "team game" and you need 3 players on each cleric wouldn't a team of 20 clerics be worth 60 other players? not so balanced.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by stavos View Post
    No. No we don't. It is true that valor will increase their survivability, and that their survivability is very good all ready. But I think a lot of that survivability comes from people thinking the ONLY way to kill a cleric is to burst him down. And that's the main reason why the valor buff would make them OMGGODMODE. However, there are other tools that everyone seems to forget. Rift isn't the first MMO where simply attempting to burst a healer down has proven ineffective. The trick to killing healers (both chloros and clerics) lies in using abilities *specifically tailored to weaken, disrupt, and harass healers.* For instance, a dom mage can put up priest's lament, which is bad. Then he can make things worse and put up a debuff that decreases the healing the cleric receives by 50%. These two alone will make healing himself remarkably difficult. Now if a dps gets on that cleric, it could be lights out, especially if that dpser is smart too. Perhaps it's a warrior that let's the cast times go until the last second (to waste the clerics time AND give priest's lament a chance to kick in) and then interrupts. Of course, wanting to save the healer, we get a rogue on the warrior, that the dom then insta squirrels. This is mostly put in so I don't have to listen to 50 posts on why I gave a 2v1 scenario. Now, the cleric is doing badly at this point, and can't waste that global to get the rogue out of the sheep. He desperately casts a short quick healing spell, but it's interrupted by priest's lament. The warrior is watching those debuffs because he knows *that's really important in pvp* and just a split second before that silence wears off, he throws out a stun. The cleric is madly slamming his "next spell instant" button, but it's too late, they got him too low, now he's dead.

    This is only one scenario of thousands that can be used to take down a cleric. Every class has tools to help with this. Nightblades have a healing debuff, assassins can help stuns and (dare I mention it) the poison from the pvp tree which slows casting. Warriors have interrupts and stuns, mages have silences. It only takes 32 points in warlock to get a stun and a silence. Wait till a big heal is *almost* done and slam 'em with a stun. When that stun wears off, nail 'em with silence. It might not kill 'em, but they sure won't be in a good place, and if they were healing someone else, they're probably dead by now.

    The point of this post is that valor isn't the end of the ability to kill clerics. Pyros that were bursting them down may be a thing of the past, but that was never the only strategy. What if you have a pyro with his still sufficient burst with someone else who knows how to interrupt and stun? Bursting on top of control is deadly.

    Instead of complaining about how unfair life is that you can't one shot the healer (and thank god, or they'd all stop playing), think about other ways to make things seem unfair to them. If you think healing is the biggest threat on the battlefield, then tailor your spec to counter it, and be a healer killer. And most importantly, don't be afraid to ask other players to assist you, whether you're soloing or grouping with friends. There's no shame in using communication and strategy to remove a battlefield threat. Maybe teamwork doesn't make your e-peen grow, but no one likes a giant bloated e-blood gorged e-peen anyway. Trust me.
    Go away cleric. Quit defending your op class.

  7. #7
    Telaran stavos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodisplay View Post
    to sum it up you need a group of Dom/Champion/Nightblade
    in order to kill 1 healer.

    sounds good (i dont think you can even find a dom these days)
    Too those unfamiliar with common logical errors, this is called a "strawman argument." In this argument, you create a point that sounds similar to the point that was actually made, but is easier to refute, and then refute it.

    The summary of my post is not that you need a dom/champ/nightblade group to kill a cleric. I used those as examples, and in those examples I didn't even use all three at once. If the only way to kill a cleric was to have a WF with a dom/champ/nightblade all teaming up, you bet your *** I'd be complaining the loudest. I used those as examples, but I'm sure you understand that you can look through all the souls of all the callings and find wonderful anti-healing abilities just begging to be used. And for the record, I also mentioned an infiltrator poison, and just by mentioning I don't mean to say what we actually need is a team of dom/champ/nightblade/infiltrator ALL working together.

    The summary of my post is this: You have abilities to cripple and hinder healers, in additional to abilities to burst players in general. Using them wisely will help bring down healers. Using them in cooperation with other players is deadly beyond compare.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodisplay View Post
    pvp is not a team game when all you can do is PUGS.
    seems a bit stupid to arrange a team for pvp,the max i do is to queue with 2 school buddies.

    arenas worth it since rating is precious,favor you gain but cant lose.


    also if its a "team game" and you need 3 players on each cleric wouldn't a team of 20 clerics be worth 60 other players? not so balanced.
    Uh, just because you didnt join the warfront with them doesnt mean you cant work with them. People can change specs based on group composition. If you and your friends dont want to do that, fine, but dont blame other people because you wont be flexible and do what the team needs.

    And BTW, just a silence or a healing debuff can really frustrate a cleric. Most of the cleric specs dont have much defense against cc.
    Eol, Chloromancer and Justinian, Inquistor, Guardians of Faeblight.
    Previous incarnations include: Camring and Camran, SWTOR; Ceol & Duri - LotRO; Eol - L2; Kili - WoW; Camring - SWG; Justinian, Camring - DAoC

  9. #9
    Telaran stavos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rell View Post
    Go away cleric. Quit defending your op class.
    Actually I play a mage. And not even a pyro!

    Edit: I do have a 28 cleric, and he is good at healing, but I have trouble leveling him because all I can think is, wow, your legs are really skinny, and 28 is far enough along I can't really reroll for cosmetic reasons. Maybe I will though. If I made a mathosian cleric, I might actually be the only one I've ever seen.
    Last edited by stavos; 04-27-2011 at 07:55 AM.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rell View Post
    Go away cleric. Quit defending your op class.
    LOL, thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this thread. Now please go back to your dps meter and try to get .1 dps more out of your spec rather than do what it takes to help your team.
    Eol, Chloromancer and Justinian, Inquistor, Guardians of Faeblight.
    Previous incarnations include: Camring and Camran, SWTOR; Ceol & Duri - LotRO; Eol - L2; Kili - WoW; Camring - SWG; Justinian, Camring - DAoC

  11. #11
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by stavos View Post
    Too those unfamiliar with common logical errors, this is called a "strawman argument." In this argument, you create a point that sounds similar to the point that was actually made, but is easier to refute, and then refute it.

    The summary of my post is not that you need a dom/champ/nightblade group to kill a cleric. I used those as examples, and in those examples I didn't even use all three at once. If the only way to kill a cleric was to have a WF with a dom/champ/nightblade all teaming up, you bet your *** I'd be complaining the loudest. I used those as examples, but I'm sure you understand that you can look through all the souls of all the callings and find wonderful anti-healing abilities just begging to be used. And for the record, I also mentioned an infiltrator poison, and just by mentioning I don't mean to say what we actually need is a team of dom/champ/nightblade/infiltrator ALL working together.

    The summary of my post is this: You have abilities to cripple and hinder healers, in additional to abilities to burst players in general. Using them wisely will help bring down healers. Using them in cooperation with other players is deadly beyond compare.
    But but but... if they take some time to use cc on the cleric, their dps will suffer, they will drop on the dps chart, their parsing wont be optimal, and their epeen will wither and deflate. LOL.
    Eol, Chloromancer and Justinian, Inquistor, Guardians of Faeblight.
    Previous incarnations include: Camring and Camran, SWTOR; Ceol & Duri - LotRO; Eol - L2; Kili - WoW; Camring - SWG; Justinian, Camring - DAoC

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Plushy Chestburster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rell View Post
    Go away cleric. Quit defending your op class.

    Well spoken coming from a Pyro....


    Lulz
    I played a Cleric before it was cool...

    Belphagore
    Level 50 Cleric

  13. #13
    Telaran stavos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceol View Post
    Uh, just because you didnt join the warfront with them doesnt mean you cant work with them. People can change specs based on group composition. If you and your friends dont want to do that, fine, but dont blame other people because you wont be flexible and do what the team needs.

    And BTW, just a silence or a healing debuff can really frustrate a cleric. Most of the cleric specs dont have much defense against cc.
    This. I've solo queued plenty of times, and actually used both warfront general chat and a whispers to coordinate devastating attacks on groups of other players which including clerics. You'd be amazed at how much more effective cc is when you tell you're group, "okay guys I'm going to fear/squirrel/stun/whatever THAT guy, so he won't get in the way of taking down THIS guy."

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by stavos View Post
    dom mage can put up priest's lament
    debuff that decreases the healing the cleric receives by 50%.
    warrior let's the cast times go until the last second then interrupts.
    warrior just a split second before that silence wears off, he throws out a stun.
    Nightblades have a healing debuff
    assassins can help stuns and poison from the pvp tree which slows casting.
    These are often strategies people fail to utilize and subsequently have issues with casters.

    Waiting to stun, waiting to interrupt, making use of typically less effective pve debuffs, etc are how you kill classes with a lot of magical utility.

    It's true that in a 1vs1 fight clerics often have the advantage, especially if this is out in a pvp world where you don't necessarily run around in pvp specs. Of course, that cleric is also not specced out for ridiculous amounts of healing potential since they will have to kill things as well so the playing field is level.

    In group fights you need to make sure your abilities are accentuating the other members of your team. Sure you might need to blow a lot of CDs and properly timed abilities off to kill their healer, but once you take them out they are hosed. You can dps burn the rest of the group down with little concern since they won't be able to survive.

    Think about all the poor T1 and T2 bosses you've slaughtered over the passed months. If they kill your tank, you typically wipe. In pvp people typically focus the healer since, as T1 and T2 dungeons show us, focusing on durable players is a bad way to play pvp.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple spitfirek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodisplay View Post
    pvp is not a team game when all you can do is PUGS.
    seems a bit stupid to arrange a team for pvp,the max i do is to queue with 2 school buddies.

    arenas worth it since rating is precious,favor you gain but cant lose.


    also if its a "team game" and you need 3 players on each cleric wouldn't a team of 20 clerics be worth 60 other players? not so balanced.
    First off, the person that said it takes 3 ppl to kill 1 cleric is blowing smoke to try to get them nerfed.

    Here is an example of a full healer team I BEAT THE CRAP out of in Black Garden. The enemy team was 100% healers(premade). They probably thought that they could just shield/invun grab the fang and then just sit there healing themselves for the rest of the time and win easy(which would work GREAT vs a normal window licker DPS pug.) I had my dominator there luckly. They did get the fang at the start while I built my charge up to 100. I then Arresting Presenced all of them while my Void Shroud was on the fang carrier... he dropped VERY shortly thereafter. I Mass Exhaustioned all of them while one of my team mates grabbed the fang. The rest of the time the enemy team tried and failed at killing us cuz they had no damage or CC or Silences to do anything. LOL

    That was an extreme example, but it shows the point Im going to try to make here.

    If you play to your enemies weaknesses, you will win(probably even steamroll them). If you play to their strengths, you will probably lose(unless your strengths are better than theres... which is what everyone is complaining about "My strengths are not as strong as that guys strengths". But they dont say or probably even think about "my weaknesses are not as bad as that guys weaknesses" which is the other side of the coin.)
    Last edited by spitfirek; 04-27-2011 at 08:10 AM.

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