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Thread: Thief class

  1. #1
    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
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    Default Thief class

    Please have a utility style thief class in Rift.
    I understand that Ninjas, Assassins, Blade Dancers are cool for the kiddies (and the grown up big kiddies ;) ) but not all of us roguish stealthy types are interested in being uber elite masters of weaponry.

    I miss the old school D&D thief. The coward with only ONE dagger, the closest thing to ambi-dexterity was holding cutlery. A class that avoids conflict at all costs, unless they have a friend with them that can take the heat. A utility class that always has a bag of tricks on hand to hinder his enemies, reducing movement with caltrops, interupting incantations with powdered glass, pepper or choking powder, cowardly groin kicks, eye gouges and the old "hey look, a Unicorn!" trick.

    To be able to disarm complex traps, find secret doors and hidden treasure. Dungeons that are filled with traps, pitfalls and hidden passages that whilst they can be bypassed without a thief via finding an alternate route, having a thief to bypass them directly will cut the spelunking time in half, or reveal access to hidden treasure that would not be obtainable without one.

    The Thief class should never be strong in combat. To make up for this, the Thief will grant heavy debuffs when attacking an already occupied target from behind. These backstab attacks target vital areas that will hinder the target in someway, whether it be reducing damage output, slowing attacks, causing spell fizzle chance, reducing movement, causing confusion (to cause it to attack a friend/minion), reducing block, parry, dodge rating. Alternatively the thief could use his backstab attack to provide his allies with an attack bonus of some kind, distracting the enemy just enough so that he opens his defenses to a critical hit.

    I miss MMO's having a non-spell flinging utility class. I don't want to be the ninja or the tank or the harry potter, I wan't to be the Jimmy the Hand, the Grey Mouser, the Tasslehoff Burfoot.


    Mechanic wise I'll post an example of a tank stereotype and the thief stereotype.

    Generic Tank
    Weapons: Any one handed + shield or Pike/Pole arm
    Armour: Any and all up to Full Plate
    Health Pool: High
    Stamina Pool: High
    Damage out put: Low
    Damage Mitigation: High
    Skill pool: Low

    Generic Thief
    Weapons: Light one handed weapons. preferably concealable.
    Armour: Up to Light leather
    Health Pool: Low
    Stamina Pool: High
    Damage out put: Medium
    Damage Mitigation: Low
    Skill pool: High
    Last edited by Elth; 05-27-2010 at 03:10 PM.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Skythe's Avatar
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    So you want to be a class that avoids combat-the very essence of MMOs, that is underpowered, and yet overpowered as a support class that debuffs everything like hell and can find things that no other class can find...
    Yea, but no.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Liziana's Avatar
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    ...and pickpocketing!! don't forget that!

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Protos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skythe View Post
    So you want to be a class that avoids combat-the very essence of MMOs, that is underpowered, and yet overpowered as a support class that debuffs everything like hell and can find things that no other class can find...
    Yea, but no.
    Are you sure you read the OP Skythe? Because what I'm reading does not say that Thieves wouldn't enter combat. They might be cowardly sneaks, but they'll sure as hell fight dirty to save their skins, and attacking from behind is always a good option if you want to keep your survivability up.

    However, any pickpocketing that could be done shouldn't be done to players, and stuff shouldn't be able to be stolen from players. Leave that to sandboxes imo. And although I love the idea, I can't see the finding hidden whatsits working very well in a game where one of the main driving forces behind the content is that you don't have to group if you don't want to. If Thieves were the only ones who could find certain stuff, it would go against the whole principle that they're working on.
    i <3 tbroc

  5. #5
    Telaran Xanoth's Avatar
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    The problem with this sort of class is that it would be hugely underpowered for solo play, designers would have to give it basic combat strength for that reason.

    Most of what you want seems more "character" than class.

    The Burglar class in LOTRO is a lot like what you ask for, yet isn't particularly weak or cowardly.
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  6. #6
    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
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    Disabling traps, doors, pickpocketing all awsome skills from old type rpg's we don't see very often anymore in new MMO's, I think thiefs are a interesting concept and shouldn't always be dumped on the rogue pile of classes. However considering there will be 8 base clases to pick from I wouldnt expect to see it as a starting pick. Maybe through customization you would eventually end up with the type of class / skillset you describe but at this point even that would be a longshot.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Viashivan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanoth View Post
    The problem with this sort of class is that it would be hugely underpowered for solo play, designers would have to give it basic combat strength for that reason.

    Most of what you want seems more "character" than class.

    The Burglar class in LOTRO is a lot like what you ask for, yet isn't particularly weak or cowardly.
    Let's not foget they mention you can change your class on the fly just prior to entering an instance.
    Also they have subclass cards you can equip in mid instance, perhaps you know the dungeun your heading into is known for traps and trap doors, slap on the thief card to your fighter and you've got the basic know how to get the job down.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viashivan View Post
    Let's not foget they mention you can change your class on the fly just prior to entering an instance.
    Also they have subclass cards you can equip in mid instance, perhaps you know the dungeun your heading into is known for traps and trap doors, slap on the thief card to your fighter and you've got the basic know how to get the job down.
    Read this:
    http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/...kbuster-Titles
    and
    http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/riftpl...ml?sid=6260863

    There where some changes in regard to this.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir

  9. #9
    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skythe View Post
    So you want to be a class that avoids combat-the very essence of MMOs, that is underpowered, and yet overpowered as a support class that debuffs everything like hell and can find things that no other class can find...
    Yea, but no.
    Why so serious?

    Like others have mentioned in this thread, this has been done in other MMORPG's. The Rogue class in Dungeons and Dragons Online is a weak combatant that is an invaluable addition to group play due to his ability to find secret doors, detect and disarm traps, open locked doors. The Burglar class in Lord of the rings is another utility style rogue class that provides tactical buffing abilities to his group. Both are adequate combatants that focus on stealth and subterfuge style of gameplay without the need to be super-ninja-assassins. If you think combat is the very essence of MMO's then I do not think that you are playing MMO's to their full potential sir.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Elladar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elth View Post
    .........
    and the old "hey look, a Unicorn!" trick.
    .........
    WHERE?? WHERE??? *looks around while spinning* Gasp... LIAR!!!
    I don't need to "Get a life."! I'm a Gamer! I have loads of Lifes! - - - Necromancy - happiness is an army of unstoppable, loyal, killing machines.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker Goremarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elth View Post
    Why so serious?

    Like others have mentioned in this thread, this has been done in other MMORPG's. The Rogue class in Dungeons and Dragons Online is a weak combatant that is an invaluable addition to group play due to his ability to find secret doors, detect and disarm traps, open locked doors. The Burglar class in Lord of the rings is another utility style rogue class that provides tactical buffing abilities to his group. Both are adequate combatants that focus on stealth and subterfuge style of gameplay without the need to be super-ninja-assassins. If you think combat is the very essence of MMO's then I do not think that you are playing MMO's to their full potential sir.
    The Rogue in DDO is a very weak head-to-head combatant. If they're letting someone else take the heat before they start swinging, they can wreck house.

    And I'm a HUGE advocate for the D&D style thief/DDO Rogue in MMO's. If it's done properly, it can be an invaluable class in parties.

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  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Kalagrim's Avatar
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    I miss the DnD rogue also as being apart of the core group because dungeons are generally full of traps in fantasy. Heck in real life they had to outlaw the shotgun tripwire and the like since that was blowing too many people away. DDO did a great job with putting traps back into dungeons.

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
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    Traps and secret doors are a wonderful way of adding flavour to a game. Having a sense of randomness adds a fun factor to a game and I really wish MMO's would stop being so static. DDO really incorporated it well, but I wasn't a fan of their instancing.

    I'm looking forward to Telara's open world and especially looking forward to delving into a completely new world that doesn't rely on an existing IP.

  14. #14
    Shield of Telara Zinn's Avatar
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    I am not a big fan of PvP but Shadowbane's Thief's pickpocket ability was quite nice. They could sneak in and pickpocket a groups worthwhile loot before the group ever realized it. They added a lot of danger to PvP and kept people on edge. Allowing pickpocketing on PvP servers or in PvP zones on PvE servers would be a very nice addition to gameplay.

    I also agree with the other posters comments about trap detection and hidden walls. I disagree that being a low DPSer would be terrible. If a Thief could have good class specific debuffs or other combat utility to makeup for the lack of DPS he could be a nice addition to a raid group. I love utility classes. The challenge is making them useful and worth bringing to a raid.

  15. #15
    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zinn View Post
    I am not a big fan of PvP but Shadowbane's Thief's pickpocket ability was quite nice. They could sneak in and pickpocket a groups worthwhile loot before the group ever realized it. They added a lot of danger to PvP and kept people on edge. Allowing pickpocketing on PvP servers or in PvP zones on PvE servers would be a very nice addition to gameplay.

    I also agree with the other posters comments about trap detection and hidden walls. I disagree that being a low DPSer would be terrible. If a Thief could have good class specific debuffs or other combat utility to makeup for the lack of DPS he could be a nice addition to a raid group. I love utility classes. The challenge is making them useful and worth bringing to a raid.
    I never played shadowbane but I played mortal online beta for a while. I don't mind pickpocketing as long as its limited to coins and small items like rings or jewellery. Pickpocketing someones 2handed sword is a bit stupid though.

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