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Thread: So... are we supposeta get less damage per combo point?

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default So... are we supposeta get less damage per combo point?

    Some testing I was playing with on my Rogue and Warrior -
    All tests done no buffs, nobody beating on dummy, no gear procs etc.

    1 Combo point: Final blow low 269, high 570.
    5 Combo points: Low 853, high 1546 - (170.6 and 309.2) per point.
    Energy concerns are the only thing here, at 1 point its 40, at 5 its much much cheaper...

    Now compare to the warrior:
    1 point: 315-682
    3 Points: 560 to 1177 (260-392 per point)

    However with warriors, their finishing move remains 10 power at all times.

    A champ para build can reliably build all 3 action points in 3 seconds. A rogue can SOMETIMES build 5 in 3 seconds, if we have multiple 2 CP moves off cooldown, so every few rotations at best.

    So my question is, why do we have diminishing rewards per point instead of rewarding us for using 5 over others.
    My complaint is, why is it imbalanced more against rogues(...again)?

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Really, nobody else has noticed this?

  3. #3
    Sez
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleos View Post
    Really, nobody else has noticed this?
    I love math, but your post is so smart, people are too intimidated to post.

    Also, there are no obvious flaws, so flamers and trolls can't punch holes in it.

    So... Basically 99% of posters will look at this, agree, and move on.
    Sez is now Zes on Dayblind

    - Rogue Lead - <Gestalt> - Defiant - Dayblind Server -

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    nope not really, but now that you mentioned it...

    QQ more warriors...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleos View Post
    My complaint is, why is it imbalanced more against rogues(...again)?
    Well you guys also have a much shorter GCD then us, I think the idea was to have you do many smaller medium damage hits and build up to a moderately powerful finisher then hit it again, but the calculation for AP, weapon damage vs mitigation on other classes seems to make everything involving rogue and warrior damage screwey.
    Last edited by Magnos; 04-26-2011 at 02:09 PM.

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    He did say with paragon, 50% chance to build 2 points, using skills statistically you should have 3 combo points as a warrior with 2 GCD's(3 seconds). Every 2-3 rotations a rogue can build 5 combo points in 4 seconds.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleos View Post
    Some testing I was playing with on my Rogue and Warrior -
    All tests done no buffs, nobody beating on dummy, no gear procs etc.

    1 Combo point: Final blow low 269, high 570.
    5 Combo points: Low 853, high 1546 - (170.6 and 309.2) per point.
    Energy concerns are the only thing here, at 1 point its 40, at 5 its much much cheaper...

    Now compare to the warrior:
    1 point: 315-682
    3 Points: 560 to 1177 (260-392 per point)

    However with warriors, their finishing move remains 10 power at all times.

    A champ para build can reliably build all 3 action points in 3 seconds. A rogue can SOMETIMES build 5 in 3 seconds, if we have multiple 2 CP moves off cooldown, so every few rotations at best.

    So my question is, why do we have diminishing rewards per point instead of rewarding us for using 5 over others.
    My complaint is, why is it imbalanced more against rogues(...again)?

    You did not take into account that warriors have a 1.5 second global cool down where rouges have a 1 second global cool down. You also did not take into account every 12 seconds warriors need to use a three point ap finisher to rebuff their damage with strike like iron.
    Last edited by Agripa; 04-26-2011 at 02:46 PM.

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by StabAddict View Post
    He did say with paragon, 50% chance to build 2 points, using skills statistically you should have 3 combo points as a warrior with 2 GCD's(3 seconds). Every 2-3 rotations a rogue can build 5 combo points in 4 seconds.
    Most raiding warriors using champ paragon beast master prefer not to use weapon master which is the chance to build cp points because it throws off their rotations.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    That 1500 finisher was definitely a crit, OP, did you take into account high end warrior crit? If not taking into account weapon master, that is 4.5 seconds compared to a rogues 4 seconds with a 2CP builder.

    If with WM from paragon, that is nearly guaranteed 3 points every 3 seconds. And you're right, he didn't add in SLI, that would push the damage range even farther in the warriors favor.
    Last edited by StabAddict; 04-26-2011 at 02:54 PM.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleos View Post
    Some testing I was playing with on my Rogue and Warrior -
    All tests done no buffs, nobody beating on dummy, no gear procs etc.

    1 Combo point: Final blow low 269, high 570.
    5 Combo points: Low 853, high 1546 - (170.6 and 309.2) per point.
    Energy concerns are the only thing here, at 1 point its 40, at 5 its much much cheaper...

    Now compare to the warrior:
    1 point: 315-682
    3 Points: 560 to 1177 (260-392 per point)

    However with warriors, their finishing move remains 10 power at all times.

    A champ para build can reliably build all 3 action points in 3 seconds. A rogue can SOMETIMES build 5 in 3 seconds, if we have multiple 2 CP moves off cooldown, so every few rotations at best.

    So my question is, why do we have diminishing rewards per point instead of rewarding us for using 5 over others.
    My complaint is, why is it imbalanced more against rogues(...again)?

    Sigh. /facepalm
    Last edited by Tarmalen; 04-26-2011 at 08:23 PM.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    They can switch targets and keep their combo points too. Enjoy.

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    your also not taking into account energy starving... which happens almost always (yes even with reduced costs)
    our 1sec gcd very quickly stops being 1sec due to the lack of energy to use skills.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinovar View Post
    your also not taking into account energy starving... which happens almost always (yes even with reduced costs)
    our 1sec gcd very quickly stops being 1sec due to the lack of energy to use skills.
    This a million times over. No rogue can raid without being energy starved, it just doesn't happen. At least warriors get that on crit 10 power, I'd kill for that, I'd kill Gersh happily, no more stupidly OP pyros and fixed rogues.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker Villainelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsession View Post
    No rogue can raid without being energy starved, it just doesn't happen.
    Not to discount the serious energy problem most rogue souls have, but...

    The above simply isn't true. Combat Efficiency in Bladedancer completely solves the energy problem, and the NB/BD/Sin build is competitive for top rogue raid DPS, with better cooldowns, better burst damage sub-30% raid boss health, and better survivability to boot.

    However, the fact remains that aside from Bladedancer (which doesn't work AT ALL in most rogue builds, and has a serious identity crisis), rogues do have an energy problem.
    Villainelle
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  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    So, what? Rogues should:

    1. Perform like warriors. It's bad that the two callings have differences, they should be merged!

    2. Have infinite energy, because there's a point in having a resource that's pointless?

    If rogues are behind in damage, the solution is not making their resource trivial. If warriors don't need to worry about their power, it means they need to be looked at.

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