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Thread: simple logic: any class that kills in one shot needs to die in one shot

  1. #1
    Sword of Telara
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    Default simple logic: any class that kills in one shot needs to die in one shot

    simple is simple
    chars are chars

  2. #2
    Plane Touched
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    But that's how the balance team works:

    MM - damage nerf
    Champ - damage nerf
    VK - damage nerf
    Pyro - damage buff
    Sab - damage nerf
    MM - damage buff
    Yes. Yes. No.

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara
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    its a shame =[

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Nibbler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daays View Post
    But that's how the balance team works:

    MM - damage nerf
    Champ - damage nerf
    VK - damage nerf
    Pyro - damage buff
    Sab - damage nerf
    MM - damage buff
    More like

    Launch: MM - damage big nerf
    Patch 1.2: MM - skills tweaked so some dmg skills do more, overal DPS still bad.
    patch 1.3 I can't wait

  5. #5
    Rift Chaser MrGrimm999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodisplay View Post
    simple is simple
    chars are chars
    Simple logic

    If A then B does not imply
    B then A

    Go back to school and actually take a logic class.

    I'll even help you out, look up the term Affirming the Consequent.

    Hint: Its a logical falicy that you just committed.

    P.S. You might also want to look up Denying the Antecedent
    Last edited by MrGrimm999; 04-22-2011 at 06:44 AM.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara
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    To the person who started this Topic, you are 100% correct. High damage like Pyromancer's need to be easy to kill. Example, if they can 1 hit kill, you can 1 hit kill them.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrGrimm999 View Post
    Simple logic

    If A then B does not imply
    B then A

    Go back to school and actually take a logic class.

    I'll even help you out, look up the term Affirming the Consequent.

    Hint: Its a logical falicy that you just committed.

    P.S. You might also want to look up Denying the Antecedent
    A iff B is the driving basis for the "glass cannon" archetype. It's demonstrated amply with 15+ years of game experience here that super high damage and high survivability is generally massively overpowered, hence the "super high damage but almost no survivability" measure exists. Yes, they can rock your world if they get attacks in, but you should be able to walk over and look at them wrong and they die.

    Gamers tend to demand this necessary and sufficient design. If you have super high damage, you should be easily killable. If you have super low survivability, then you should also do ridiculous damage. It's just a part of balance. When you look at a class's capabilities it should never be like this:

    Class A:

    Damage: =====
    Survivab: =======
    Other...: ===

    Class B:

    Damage: ==================================
    Survivab: =============================
    Other...: =============
    But we have precisely this kind of thing happening in Rift.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    bright wizards were very squishy in warhammer... i dont see ppl saying they were fine :P
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    A iff B is the driving basis for the "glass cannon" archetype. It's demonstrated amply with 15+ years of game experience here that super high damage and high survivability is generally massively overpowered, hence the "super high damage but almost no survivability" measure exists. Yes, they can rock your world if they get attacks in, but you should be able to walk over and look at them wrong and they die.

    Gamers tend to demand this necessary and sufficient design. If you have super high damage, you should be easily killable. If you have super low survivability, then you should also do ridiculous damage. It's just a part of balance. When you look at a class's capabilities it should never be like this:



    But we have precisely this kind of thing happening in Rift.
    and who would have figured in a game where you can freely mix skill trees, some of which are quite defensive, that you could totally cover your butt and make non-glass still-cannons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    and who would have figured in a game where you can freely mix skill trees, some of which are quite defensive, that you could totally cover your butt and make non-glass still-cannons.
    That doesn't tend to work out. There are a few hybrids that are really strong but in general it doesn't. And they want to cut down on hybrids like that being dramatically stronger than 51-pt builds, or so they say.

    Right now we have 51-pt pyros with 0pts in any other soul at a higher mitigation than some tanks with insane anti-cc and insane CC with massive, massive spike damage.

    Broken soul is broken.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 04-22-2011 at 08:49 AM.

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    Plane Touched Rhinoplat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    and who would have figured in a game where you can freely mix skill trees, some of which are quite defensive, that you could totally cover your butt and make non-glass still-cannons.
    Isn't the problem though within the Pyro soul itself (for this discussion), not including other souls. So take away any defensive ability a Pyro would have and make them get it from another soul. Which means you take away the GoS damage reduction.
    The best End Game is always player created and never dev scripted

  12. #12
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    Even without GoS Pyro could still use Lockdown, Burning Bonds, Flicker, Backdraft, Flashfire and kite extremely well.

    Pyros are like pre-nerf Sabs with CC immunity, -30% damage, no build-up time, able to fire a finisher off on anyone and not just your target with Combo points, a port, unbreakble root, AOE 9 charge Caltrop, and a chance on hit to preload 3 charges onto a target.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Vayra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkorian View Post
    To the person who started this Topic, you are 100% correct. High damage like Pyromancer's need to be easy to kill. Example, if they can 1 hit kill, you can 1 hit kill them.
    So since a tank can block/parry my damage and thus reduce it to 0 or near 0 I should be able to do the same to him? Or since a healer can heal the damage I deal to him I should be able to heal the damage he deals to me?

    Stop using fallacious logic and save us all some headaches.
    -The Unnamed- Defiant
    Vayra - Mage
    Forkrul - Cleric
    Kalyth - FOTM warrior in training, 5k pvp kills at lvl 28

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    That doesn't tend to work out. There are a few hybrids that are really strong but in general it doesn't. And they want to cut down on hybrids like that being dramatically stronger than 51-pt builds, or so they say.

    Right now we have 51-pt pyros with 0pts in any other soul at a higher mitigation than some tanks with insane anti-cc and insane CC with massive, massive spike damage.

    Broken soul is broken.
    i dunno man, ive been hit with non-crit abilities for 2300 from a sword and board warrior(it was infestation, he was mitigating well over half my damage too)

    its not hard in this game to create specs that are not-really-glass cannons.

    i dont disagree that pyros have too many survival tools in their tree, specifically the mitigation from GoS and the shield on hit(which combine to pretty rediculous levels). The CC moves are fine, their survival SHOULD be linked to people not reaching you, NOT tanking them when they get there.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Vayra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caldern View Post
    i dunno man, ive been hit with non-crit abilities for 2300 from a sword and board warrior(it was infestation, he was mitigating well over half my damage too)

    its not hard in this game to create specs that are not-really-glass cannons.

    i dont disagree that pyros have too many survival tools in their tree, specifically the mitigation from GoS and the shield on hit(which combine to pretty rediculous levels). The CC moves are fine, their survival SHOULD be linked to people not reaching you, NOT tanking them when they get there.
    If that is how mages should get their survivability, we need a) A LOT more tools to get out of melee and stay out, and/or b) melee need to lose most of their tools to get into melee range and stay there. It is currently far too easy for melee to get into melee range and stay there, and without any tools to survive in melee range the mage would be toast. So until this changes we NEED to be able to survive in melee range because there is very little chance of staying at range outside 1v1, and even then it's very hard.
    -The Unnamed- Defiant
    Vayra - Mage
    Forkrul - Cleric
    Kalyth - FOTM warrior in training, 5k pvp kills at lvl 28

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