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Thread: Class changes and Expert fixes, need to happen before 1.2 (unless 1.2 is real soon)

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Class changes and Expert fixes, need to happen before 1.2 (unless 1.2 is real soon)

    title explains the most of it , but i for one am a little peeved that the end game met such poor testing. i know that its not easy and i know rift is the most succsessful MMO lauch to date. but i really have to say balance between classes should be number 1 priority, WoW has only just seemed to work that out after 5 years or so.

    just imo to keep people playing a game such as this they need to know they are on a level playing feild, class changes are usualy relitivly trival and require only a little number crunching, i for 1 would like to see a small patch of class changed go out every week. dont get stuck into only doing class changes on major patch releases, many people cannot wait 2 months being utter usless before there class gets fixed.

    experts should have been fixed before river of souls was even implimented its utter discrasefull that sum of the issues with experts + bugs still exsist and yet you press on with new content. take the last boss in CC she is so bugged the encounter is purely based on luck. i know u have announced a fix but WHY? isnt it allready done?.

    so to point out. Fix old before new, patch weekly to keep people at least feel you are willing to push changes through fast, even if it only includes a few changes here and there they can allways be reverted.

    thanks for listening
    Last edited by Vasana; 04-19-2011 at 04:12 AM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    what expert fixes?

    i've been to all expert dungeons and have only seen a handful of bugs, of which some might rarely cause a wipe but no big deal...

    last boss in CC is not luck, you just can't rely on your vision. gotta think about where to go
    Last edited by Redcruxs; 04-19-2011 at 04:25 AM.

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    /signed

    not hard to do hotfixes and revert changes if they no good. your hotfixes only take 30 minutes anyways!
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Personally i think Trion took all the damage proportions in the entirely wrong direction. As of right now, the damage reductions and healing numbers are assuming large staggering hits from PvE bosses. As such in PvP it is impossible to stop a healer unless there is an abundance of -healing effects or CC you can overtake them with. And since my experience with WoW has shown me that no one likes being stunlocked for an entire fight not participating in it at all then we need more -healing.

    Either that or re do all damage numbers, all armor values, all healing numbers... that'd be way too much work. All classes should have a readily available -25% or -30% healing debuff they can apply to their target affecting either healing done or healing recieved. Or both non stacking. Then later in some of the trees that depend on screwing a healer to a wall, or assassinating someone (hint hint assassin, The guys who use poisons) should get some higer debuffs that either can be used in conjunction with, or overwrite either way bringing the total to 50% or higher. We are not raid bosses. We cannot hit that hard.

    As it stands right now a healer healing a mage can stand him up against some serious damage. A mage is supposed to be the squishiest of all targets. Let's set up a hypothetical. How many people do you think it's fair that a healer should be able to negate beating on their charge? Two people? Four? Eight? If you ask me the answer is two. If all other variables were aside, and the combat was done in the method most favorable to the healer: No one doing anything to him, only attacking their healing target, they should be able to handle the equal amount of man power being applied against them. And this should be difficult since the mage is supposed to be the squishiest, so it should only last as long as the mage is able to sustain some survivability cooldowns sacrificing damage output. Against a more survivable target maybe a bit less.

    But in any case, once the number jumps to three people attacking their charge it should be unmanageable. Maybe against a warrior it would just be as difficult as the two vs the mage unless he uses cooldowns, but you get my point. In no situation should a cleric be able to hold a mage alive against 4+ people at the same time.

    And yes, my post is PvP focused but that's because that's what i am. I like PvP. It is not difficult to balance for both, you just need to approach it from the right way, even if it means certain abilities affecting players differently than mobs. Whatever way Trion decides to do it it has to get done.

  5. #5
    Plane Walker Dhamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FearAlice View Post
    Personally i think Trion took all the damage proportions in the entirely wrong direction. As of right now, the damage reductions and healing numbers are assuming large staggering hits from PvE bosses. As such in PvP it is impossible to stop a healer unless there is an abundance of -healing effects or CC you can overtake them with. And since my experience with WoW has shown me that no one likes being stunlocked for an entire fight not participating in it at all then we need more -healing.
    You know...

    It's almost as if they designed the game to be primarily PvE focused with a smidgeon of PvP...

    Oh wait...

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhamp View Post
    You know...

    It's almost as if they designed the game to be primarily PvE focused with a smidgeon of PvP...

    Oh wait...
    I know.. I guess i keep hoping from hearing that *shudder* podcast where someone said "people keep asking if this game is pve oriented, or pvp oriented... some patches we'll focus on pvp. some on pve."

    I guess i just read into that too much thinking they'd have both in mind. My bad =(

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Dhamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FearAlice View Post
    I know.. I guess i keep hoping from hearing that *shudder* podcast where someone said "people keep asking if this game is pve oriented, or pvp oriented... some patches we'll focus on pvp. some on pve."

    I guess i just read into that too much thinking they'd have both in mind. My bad =(
    The problem is, there are only 2 ways to truly balance PvE and PvP.
    1) to homogenise - going against their core ideal.
    2) group balance - and witness the endless QQ of PuG PvPers who believe PvP balance is them beating anyone else with ease, but getting anyone who kills then to <10%.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhamp View Post
    The problem is, there are only 2 ways to truly balance PvE and PvP.
    1) to homogenise - going against their core ideal.
    2) group balance - and witness the endless QQ of PuG PvPers who believe PvP balance is them beating anyone else with ease, but getting anyone who kills then to <10%.
    My issue with group balance really is that there isn't any. There's always some combination that steamrolls all the others. Something always stands out blatantly as "top dog". Maybe two or three, but there's always decidedly better groups. Balancing each class so that everyone can deal with what everyone else can throw and letting it be decided by skill is best in my eyes. I don't mean homogenizing, but give each class it's own way to deal with things. Maybe one class puts a clicky healing debuff while another procs from weapon attacks. While another gets none but some quirky way to re-direct or temporarily quash it at the cost of something else.

    If things are balanced on a class per class basis, not "well let's give this class this and assume it'll have a healer with it", then you can find some really interesting combinations that actually work. Getting all the numbers right could be a bit of a ***** but it's possible.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Jazzhands's Avatar
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    There are really only two bugs I know of in experts, and both are easily manageable. Rictus' ground AoE goes invisible for me, which is incredibly annoying. Caelia in CC isn't that bad tbh, if you stack correctly you only get 1-2 stacks of the debuff, and can survive a few lightning ticks. From there, just move Clockwise 4 times, then position correctly for the knockback. Its a bit of luck, but shes far from unkillable or anything.

    As for pvp balance with healers... 2-3 DECENT players should be able to take a healer down. By Decent, I mean using properly timed stuns, interrupts, ect. I can survive 4 random people just whacking away at me, not using a healing debuff, not interrupting or stunning me, and I really see no problem with this, maybe because im bias, but its incredibly funny how pissed people get when they can't just burst me down without any strategy. Also, I would love to see GoS nerfed asap but, meh.

    There are some class changes that are desperately needed, like making Cleric/Warrior tanks actually able to tank bosses like Lord Greenscale without gibbing your raid completely. I would love to see these sooner but, sadly I don't think I will.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzhands View Post
    As for pvp balance with healers... 2-3 DECENT players should be able to take a healer down. By Decent, I mean using properly timed stuns, interrupts, ect. I can survive 4 random people just whacking away at me, not using a healing debuff, not interrupting or stunning me, and I really see no problem with this, maybe because im bias, but its incredibly funny how pissed people get when they can't just burst me down without any strategy. Also, I would love to see GoS nerfed asap but, meh.
    I do agree with you that if you're coming at someone with no strategy you should lose, but come on. Four people beating on you strategy or no should bring you down. Assuming equal level and gear and yadda yadda... I'm not going to try to insult your play style or class, but you cannot honestly tell me that there is more tactic in hitting heals than hitting damage abilities. The tactic in healing to me is proper cooldown use and triage (healing the right people at the right time). And in your hypothetical you're the only target so half of that is done for you.

    The DPS should use stuns and interrupts on you. I cannot speak from a warrior point of view or mage really since my mage is only 30 something... But as a rogue there are actually very few options available. Assassin has blind and foul play to interrupt/stun. Marksman has the knock away, ranger has an interrupt. Riftstalker can cage you but then everyone beating on you does no damage. and Nightblade has the only -healing debuff. They really do need more options if that's going to be their standpoint on how to deal with a cleric.
    Last edited by FearAlice; 04-19-2011 at 05:37 AM.

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasana View Post
    i for 1 would like to see a small patch of class changed go out every week. dont get stuck into only doing class changes on major patch releases, many people cannot wait 2 months being utter usless before there class gets fixed.
    .
    ng
    Rifts does whole scale comprehensive fixes meaning Rifts won't chase their tail making fixes only to cause another problem.Take your time see what actual problem is see the root problem make corrections wait and see what is happening make more adjustment.

    This ain't AoC or WoW you are not stuck playing a bad class,I level my 80 Dark Templar i was stuck with that abomination for months,Trion mess with Void Knight making them useless it took me two second to change to something useful ,In the next patch Void Knight are getting fixes i will resume playing the soul again.

    If you are unwilling to switch from your favorite soul when it is not working up to par fine but more than other game you adapt to changes being made.Rift more than any game can take its time and make good fixes.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    I dont understand what is the authority some people have that they can make ultamatiums.

    Dont you think that something was so easy to do, they would have just done it? For all these people who post these "simple solutions" can we see your credentials as to which games you have developed.

    Now I can admit that i'm not a veteran to the mmo genre, I have only played for about 4years. This is the first time that I'm starting an MMO right at its infancy stage, logic tells me that bugs and imbalances are to be expected. Others MMO's have had years to work on balances and bugs. Let Trion Do what we pay them too.

    As far as Class balances are concerned I believe balancing is a process, THERE WILL NEVER BE A POINT IN A GAME WHERE THIS STOPS. Classes are always evolving, players are always discovering new combinations, balancing is a process, not a one time fix.

    PVE is balanced around scripted encounters, they have fixed variables where npc's can only do what they are programmed for. PVP is not scripted, Trion cannot possibly think of every trick a player will learn which is why it is so hard. Trion has stated they have the ability to change things strictly for pvp without affecting PVE. Thats a good start.

    PVP should not be balanced around 1v1. Why do we need a counter to every class? PVP is group play. This is what has killed WOW when arenas were implemented, they got very close to 1v1 scenerio and it caused endless balancing issues.

    Give Trion time.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Agreed on CC final boss.

    graphics bugs and random starting direction causes most grps to wipe - not because its hard, because its bugged.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Ratkin's Avatar
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    Signed. Something needs to happen very soon, or I will not log off of my Inquisitor any more. :-)

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tekniques View Post
    I dont understand what is the authority some people have that they can make ultamatiums.

    Dont you think that something was so easy to do, they would have just done it? For all these people who post these "simple solutions" can we see your credentials as to which games you have developed.

    Now I can admit that i'm not a veteran to the mmo genre, I have only played for about 4years. This is the first time that I'm starting an MMO right at its infancy stage, logic tells me that bugs and imbalances are to be expected. Others MMO's have had years to work on balances and bugs. Let Trion Do what we pay them too.

    As far as Class balances are concerned I believe balancing is a process, THERE WILL NEVER BE A POINT IN A GAME WHERE THIS STOPS. Classes are always evolving, players are always discovering new combinations, balancing is a process, not a one time fix.

    PVE is balanced around scripted encounters, they have fixed variables where npc's can only do what they are programmed for. PVP is not scripted, Trion cannot possibly think of every trick a player will learn which is why it is so hard. Trion has stated they have the ability to change things strictly for pvp without affecting PVE. Thats a good start.

    PVP should not be balanced around 1v1. Why do we need a counter to every class? PVP is group play. This is what has killed WOW when arenas were implemented, they got very close to 1v1 scenerio and it caused endless balancing issues.

    Give Trion time.
    We give ultimatums because we have our breaking point on certain things and would like to express them. We do so because we want to continue playing the game. If we didn't we'd just leave and say nothing. It's out of concern that we voice our problems with things.

    I know balance is a process, our concern is that they don't spend enough time on the process as they should, or it seems they don't. If they are spending a huge amount of time on it then it's not showing.

    As for our credentials... None of us are saying "stand aside and let us do it". The simple fixes we propose are our opinions. Just because we don't always begin with "in my opinion" doesn't mean that's not what it is. Personally i like to cut down on the humility fluff. You're reading my post, obviously it's my opinion. I could be wrong, i could be right. And nothing irks me more than when people ask what games i've made when i give an opinion on how something can be fixed. Why not instead look at what games have been ruined by some people still making them.

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