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Thread: Openness About Coefficients please!

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    Plane Touched Grobyc's Avatar
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    Default Openness About Coefficients please!

    I'm sure I'm not the only one here in this game who is trying to figure out the coefficients on our spells and the equation used to formulate the actual numbers of our damage/healing. Can Trion please let us know what the formula is? I don't understand why the secrecy behind it. Is it because there are still balancing issues to work out?
    It will always baffle me that people would object to quality of life improvements and just blame it on being lazy.

  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    I cant remember if I read it or heard it on a pod cast, but they are tryig to keep it secret because they dont want the number crunchers to create cookie cutter builds, thus making other builds less viable.

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    Plane Touched Grobyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12floz View Post
    I cant remember if I read it or heard it on a pod cast, but they are tryig to keep it secret because they dont want the number crunchers to create cookie cutter builds, thus making other builds less viable.
    To be honest, the only that it does is slow people down from reaching a cookie cutter spec if that is their intention. After all, in the end, people can just do a trial and error spec and eventually find the 'best' spec in the end anyway. It just hurts more casual players than hardcore players.
    It will always baffle me that people would object to quality of life improvements and just blame it on being lazy.

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    Shadowlander
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    Im just relaying what i've heard man, I don't agree or disagree in any case. I personaly play what I like and have a large enough guild to where it dosn't matter. Hell I ran expert IT naked and dancing last night, because in the end its about having fun...and they dared me.

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    Plane Touched Grobyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12floz View Post
    Im just relaying what i've heard man, I don't agree or disagree in any case. I personaly play what I like and have a large enough guild to where it dosn't matter. Hell I ran expert IT naked and dancing last night, because in the end its about having fun...and they dared me.
    I'm not pointing fingers or blaming you, but it just doesn't make much sense to me is all.
    It will always baffle me that people would object to quality of life improvements and just blame it on being lazy.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched
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    You don't need the info, just play the game.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grobyc View Post
    To be honest, the only that it does is slow people down from reaching a cookie cutter spec if that is their intention. After all, in the end, people can just do a trial and error spec and eventually find the 'best' spec in the end anyway. It just hurts more casual players than hardcore players.
    And this is what they should do. I remember EQ, those guild moments where you just blasted each other changing gear stats and hitting it again spending hours just to get all the exact stats down to an exact number...for one item/ability only to work on it again for hours the next day.

    I'm a huge discourager of hand-holding. Nothing should be given outside of the very basics.

    I originated with UO and have been playing Eve since I was accepted into alpha testing. UO had no stats that you could view. No numbers, just a spell name, a description....just a weapon name and the possible "gm" preceding it if someone good at crafting made it....I liked how that was done. Eve has stats stats and more stats, but there are so many that crunching the numbers takes a lot of thought. This too is well done.

    I hate cookie cutter builds so much, at that point it loses the fun, you just have everyone mongering specific bits of equipment and everything else is left to waste. If anything I hope trion avoids this avidly.

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    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grobyc View Post
    To be honest, the only that it does is slow people down from reaching a cookie cutter spec if that is their intention. After all, in the end, people can just do a trial and error spec and eventually find the 'best' spec in the end anyway. It just hurts more casual players than hardcore players.
    It seems to me that if you really care that much about min_maxing then you really are a not a casual player.

    And besides, it gives the hardcore players something to do other than play a game.

    Just build what your guildies tell you to, don't meander very far from the common road and you will be widely accepted by all the big boys. I say this because I play a gimped class setup that I find awesomely fun to play with; the downside being no one wants to pick me on their kickball team. And this, I have accepted.

    Cheers all and have fun.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathathia View Post
    It seems to me that if you really care that much about min_maxing then you really are a not a casual player.

    And besides, it gives the hardcore players something to do other than play a game.

    Just build what your guildies tell you to, don't meander very far from the common road and you will be widely accepted by all the big boys. I say this because I play a gimped class setup that I find awesomely fun to play with; the downside being no one wants to pick me on their kickball team. And this, I have accepted.

    Cheers all and have fun.
    What server are you on? I'll let you play on my team.

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    knowing damage coefficients wont stop any of you from playing the spec you like or dancing naked in a dungeon with your guild. it boggles my mind when people try to imply otherwise. dont like to bother with min/max-ers? dont. they probably dont want to bother with you either...but its a big world with lots of players, you dont need eachother.

    also knowing how much damage an ability SHOULD be doing helps in debugging the game. if "fireball" should get x benefit from spell power, but only gets y, we can report it to trion, rather than wait for them to stumble across it someday.

    also we are told how much armor mitigates, how much crit gives in %, etc., why not spell coefficient?

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    Champion of Telara Shokenaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grobyc View Post
    To be honest, the only that it does is slow people down from reaching a cookie cutter spec if that is their intention. After all, in the end, people can just do a trial and error spec and eventually find the 'best' spec in the end anyway. It just hurts more casual players than hardcore players.
    And this is why parsers should never have been allowed.

    Please see other posts that fully explain how 'DO THE MATH' kills games.

    I wont repeat other people's points.
    ||There is no patch for human stupidity||

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by glutamine View Post
    knowing damage coefficients wont stop any of you from playing the spec you like or dancing naked in a dungeon with your guild. it boggles my mind when people try to imply otherwise. dont like to bother with min/max-ers? dont. they probably dont want to bother with you either...but its a big world with lots of players, you dont need eachother.

    also knowing how much damage an ability SHOULD be doing helps in debugging the game. if "fireball" should get x benefit from spell power, but only gets y, we can report it to trion, rather than wait for them to stumble across it someday.

    also we are told how much armor mitigates, how much crit gives in %, etc., why not spell coefficient?
    If you want to know, do the math. All the numbers are there, a little bit of testing goes a long way. My problem is not that people WILL min/max it is that people want to be hand held the whole way in. They didn't USED to do this, people today expect too much given to them, rather than experience the learning process of figuring it out yourself. Instead you just want the numbers, crunch it all up really quick, and bam, cookie cutter. Instead I think they should leave it be and just let those who WANT to do that, do it. If you feel it is necessary for your way of playing, feel free to do damage averaging, resistance tweaking and testing, and figure it all out....you know, like we used to back in EQ.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Trion has exposed all the logs and data you need to extrapolate how powerful that "fireball" will be when you finally obtain the coveted staff off merlin spell power. Do the math.

    I personally would rather see Trion addressing other issues.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Grobyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorentz Factor View Post
    If you want to know, do the math. All the numbers are there, a little bit of testing goes a long way. My problem is not that people WILL min/max it is that people want to be hand held the whole way in. They didn't USED to do this, people today expect too much given to them, rather than experience the learning process of figuring it out yourself. Instead you just want the numbers, crunch it all up really quick, and bam, cookie cutter. Instead I think they should leave it be and just let those who WANT to do that, do it. If you feel it is necessary for your way of playing, feel free to do damage averaging, resistance tweaking and testing, and figure it all out....you know, like we used to back in EQ.
    Then the gap between the have's and have not's will be much greater. It really all comes down to time. Or rather, don't you think that it diminishes discussion between players in the end? After all, the players who do have the time will simply just post up cookie cutter builds regardless of whether or not you give the number crunchers the numbers. The only difference is is that the players who didn't number crunch will simply follow the cookie cutter blindly without understanding why. Hell, it exists even now, it's just that the numbers aren't as definitive.

    Your definition "hand holding" isn't really hand holding, it just saves people time in the end. Or is it simply that you prefer the people who have the time to be significantly better than those who do not?
    It will always baffle me that people would object to quality of life improvements and just blame it on being lazy.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grobyc View Post
    Then the gap between the have's and have not's will be much greater. It really all comes down to time. Or rather, don't you think that it diminishes discussion between players in the end? After all, the players who do have the time will simply just post up cookie cutter builds regardless of whether or not you give the number crunchers the numbers. The only difference is is that the players who didn't number crunch will simply follow the cookie cutter blindly without understanding why. Hell, it exists even now, it's just that the numbers aren't as definitive.

    Your definition "hand holding" isn't really hand holding, it just saves people time in the end. Or is it simply that you prefer the people who have the time to be significantly better than those who do not?
    So, by your insinuation someone should not be one in the grouping of "have's" since they spent 12 years in a university working on their M.D., and as such, those who spent 1 year getting a CNA with web based online courses, should be rewarded just the same as the guy who worked hard on his medical degree? This is not how the world works. Perhaps you don't have the time to make it all the way to level 50, if you hop into pvp with someone who is 50, since you didn't have the time, I guess you should be on equal footing. The reward of spending this time to determine the best build is garnered from the time spent. If you spend a lot of time you may have the perfect build, just a little time, you'll have a decent build, but no where near the min/max'd quality that it could reach.

    You must understand this is my very point, you spend the time, you get the reward, if they just provide all you need to "even the field" for those without the time...then those having the time have no reward to chase. Leave it as it is, it is hand holding.

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