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Thread: Trion damage math...what is wrong with this picture?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Trion damage math...what is wrong with this picture?

    Comperison will be done between physical damage class which used AP and caster using SP.

    For physical class I will use Marksman and for caster - Pyromance. Both classes are range dps.

    Marksmen will be building toward Deadeye Shot finisher, Pyro will go for proc of instant Cinder Burst.

    Now Deadeye shot at max rank with 5 combo points deals 484 damage+ boosted AP for having 5 point finisher. To reach 5 combo points it will take for energy starved rogue about 8 -10 sec. Reason is that even if he uses instant cast abilites wait on energy adds on avg. 1 sec before you can spam combo builder again. With 1.5 sec cast time of Deadeye Shot you can expect that finnaly you reach damge somwhere in 11th sec. Now from experiance T1 pvp wearing rogue can expect crit on avg. of 1.3k + or minus based on gear.

    Now Pyro on other hand has 10% per cast of fire spell to activate instant cast Cinder Burst. What that means 1 in 10 spells on Avg. will proc this ability. I will use simplest spells to calculate how long it will takes (experianced pyro might have more efficient way of reaching proc). Since speced Pyro has 30% per fireball to make Flame Bolt instant cast for 3 next casts, by starting with Flamebolt he will on avg have to shoot 3 Fireballs to get spam of 3 Flame bolts. The sequance will last about 8.8 sec (mage is mana user so can cast as soon gcd is ready). This sequance is 7 spells so lets say we have to do 3 more Fireballs to reach Cinder Burst proc (10 spells), this will add another 4.8 sec before Cinder burst can be activated. This totals 13.6 sec for instant Cinder burst (again we dealing with avg situation sometimes procs happen faster sometimes slower but avg. is what % is for procs). Now Cinder Burst which has damge listed at max rank of 443 to 450 damage + SP can be expected to crit for at least 2.5k if not closer to 3.5k damage.

    Based on this calculations and experiance from PVP matches my Question to Mr. Gresh and other Devs is: How are you calcualting damage, and how are you justifing such a huge gap in damage between casters and physical damage dealers?

    P.S. I did not go into damage of spells and abilites which lead to these finishers to keep it simple, but anyone who played both rogues and mages kows that damage of spells is higher in each case compared to combo builders rogues use.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched TheRealCheesy's Avatar
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    I fail to see where you did any math. All you did was list a couple of abilities tooltips and state it would be 8.8 seconds for 6 GCDs as a Mage, which doesn't make any sense.

    You aren't getting 3.5k CBs unless you are 33/33 Pyro/Ele, which means they don't have Ground of Strength, which means they are going to die in 3 seconds.

    The other difference is Rogues more often than not have mobility over the Mage, while the Mage has to stand still and cast Fireballs.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Wha tyou fail to see is that this was just dealing with damage not mobility and suck. The lower based ability of Mage which can be activated at instant on avg. is about same if not little longer sequance hits at min. 2x if not 3x times harder then higher based damge by physical damage range dps.

    On issue of Mobility if rogue wanted to use Deadeye Shot he has to stop to use it. And Mage might have to stand for Fireballs, but instant cast Flame Bolts do not prevent him from moving. Yes by playing with specs you can increase damage of mage by huge amount, but rogue trying to do the same will never approach same damage numbers.

    How SP is factored in and how it scales compared to AP is an issue even if you look at diffrent specs and diffrent damage abilites. AP provides less and over all damage is lower for physical damage dealers compared to SP using casters.

  4. #4
    Sov
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    Quote Originally Posted by cristoff View Post
    Wha tyou fail to see is that this was just dealing with damage not mobility and suck. The lower based ability of Mage which can be activated at instant on avg. is about same if not little longer sequance hits at min. 2x if not 3x times harder then higher based damge by physical damage range dps.

    On issue of Mobility if rogue wanted to use Deadeye Shot he has to stop to use it. And Mage might have to stand for Fireballs, but instant cast Flame Bolts do not prevent him from moving. Yes by playing with specs you can increase damage of mage by huge amount, but rogue trying to do the same will never approach same damage numbers.

    How SP is factored in and how it scales compared to AP is an issue even if you look at diffrent specs and diffrent damage abilites. AP provides less and over all damage is lower for physical damage dealers compared to SP using casters.
    MM can increase their range by 5 meters.
    MM has Hit and Run meaning Deadeye Shot is spammable for 15 seconds.
    MM can use their speed buff to run out of range
    MM can use Static shot to root the mage whilst he runs away, spamming his arrows.
    MM can pair up with 0pts Rangers to get a pet to go and bother the mage, whilst the MM keeps at max range.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sov View Post
    MM can increase their range by 5 meters.
    MM has Hit and Run meaning Deadeye Shot is spammable for 15 seconds.
    MM can use their speed buff to run out of range
    MM can use Static shot to root the mage whilst he runs away, spamming his arrows.
    MM can pair up with 0pts Rangers to get a pet to go and bother the mage, whilst the MM keeps at max range.
    Deadeye shot uses 65% of your energy, i.e., it is not spammable.
    Also, you need at least 1 combo point before you can deadeye, meaning you have to weave in combo builders (which have sucky damage), which means you will have no energy.

    To make Deadeye approach remotely worthwhile damage, you have to spec well into 2 other souls for +dmg etc. Which means there is no way you can put more than 32-34 points into MM, which limits your options severely.

    So, sure, you can grab extra range, and controlled fire, and hit and run and reload and retreat, but at the cost of doing less total damage than a minor HoT.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sov View Post
    MM can increase their range by 5 meters.
    MM has Hit and Run meaning Deadeye Shot is spammable for 15 seconds.
    MM can use their speed buff to run out of range
    MM can use Static shot to root the mage whilst he runs away, spamming his arrows.
    MM can pair up with 0pts Rangers to get a pet to go and bother the mage, whilst the MM keeps at max range.
    1. 5 meters is virtually meaningless, takes less than a second for any mage to close that distance.
    2. Deadeye shot 'spammable' isn't right either - it's instant cast but it's certainly not spammable as you still need energy and combo points for it.
    3. Speed buff won't stop the damage of an incoming fireball or whatever, if you are out of range by the time the mage already started to cast. Really. Same with retreat, even if it has pulled you out of range *mid* jump, if you are stunned you will slam to the ground and have wasted your escape button.
    4. Static shot is broken on hit, normally an autoshot, it's fairly pointless unless you switch targets or are trying to stop someone chasing a buddy of yours.
    5. 0pts ranger pet is terribad, won't 'bother' anyone unless you count the mage falling out of his GoS because he's laughing too hard that you just send a 32 pet at him that can't hit him or get it's teeth through that incredibly tough cloth... Also if anyone targets it, it will die in seconds.

    Those points aside, the original poster is basically talking nonsense anyway, given that my pvp geared MM is pulling around 1.5k deadeye crits, whereas he's only allowing for 1.3k - that's too little, and we do have a button which creates an auto-crit on next hit.

    Anyway, the theory *should* be:

    Strafe->Bullseye->Deadeyeshot->Quickreload->strafe->bullseye->deadeyeshot. All of those are castable whilst moving, with the exception of the final deadeyeshot. However, the damage is so poor it's rarely enough to take down a mage, without a sniper pedastal and/or poisons or whatever. THAT is why MM needs fixing, not the nonsense above.

    Also, all that time you will be taking damage from the mage, and that means you will be getting repeatedly stunned. Unless the mage is targetting someone else, you will not get your full rotation out. Will take about 10 seconds without stuns to get that full rotation onto the mage, unfortunately he will be able to stun you for 80% of that time, and anyway, will have killed you in 6 seconds anyway.

  7. #7
    Rift Master Kor Phaeron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cristoff View Post
    Based on this calculations and experiance from PVP matches my Question to Mr. Gresh and other Devs is: How are you calcualting damage, and how are you justifing such a huge gap in damage between casters and physical damage dealers?
    its not casters vs physical damage dealers. Its Pyros vs the rest

    pyros are ALSO on a league of their own when compared to the other casters

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Marksman need a few things to change in their soultree to make the soul viable
    - energy recovery, or the 30% faster attack speed (rapid shot) means nothing
    - a talent that gives you x% damage for every point spent above 21 (like many other souls), and get rid of pedestals
    - a review of talents like armor penetration, improved firepower and master archer. None of them are really worth 5 points.

    There is a strong review needed for how AP is derived from dex/str, and how much AP contributes to DPS. At the moment, its a very minor difference. +25% AP when improved firepower procs is barely noticable. It is only about 2.5% higher DPS, which combined with +dmg talents from other souls *might* see a total of a 5% increase in damage. But for 5 points, it sucks.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    (sorry for multiple posts)

    Regarding Master Archer ... it is basically equivalent toand Assassin Poisons or Nightblade's Hellfire Blades, but whereas assassin gets 2 poisons for free for less than 10 points spent, and Nightblade gets Hellfire Blades for free with 8 points spent on other talents, Marksman has to spend 5 points on the master Archer talent to get an equivalent ability in that soul.

    Really, the effect from master archer should be an 'enchant' or self-buff you get for free for spending 15 or more points in the tree, and replace the talent with something better.
    Last edited by MichaelJ; 04-12-2011 at 02:10 AM.

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    Rift Disciple Ydyp's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Picollus;2104479]1. 5 meters is virtually meaningless, takes less than a second for any mage to close that distance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Picollus View Post
    2. Deadeye shot 'spammable' isn't right either - it's instant cast but it's certainly not spammable as you still need energy and combo points for it.
    and another second to cast, when you run back into the range he can't hit you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Picollus View Post
    3. Speed buff won't stop the damage of an incoming fireball or whatever, if you are out of range by the time the mage already started to cast. Really. Same with retreat, even if it has pulled you out of range *mid* jump, if you are stunned you will slam to the ground and have wasted your escape button.
    When running out of LoS or range the spells fails, at least every spell I cast on someone that goes out of range it failing at the end of my castbar, waisting the casttime.

    But what puts out the real pain isn't cinder burst alone, to long casttime if you don't use the armor for the proc. But the biggest problem is GoS and Fulminate (which first needs 100 charge easy to get with some spammable and 5 points in warlock). They should lower the fulminate burst dmg and add a dot effect to it. It will still be a high dmg spell, but not a one shot killer.

  11. #11
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    OP was just stating that SP and AP scale at two VERY diffrent rates, SP gives alot more for casters then AP does for melee/ranged physical. i believe Trion said they are going to look into AP scaling. on paper the damage and AP looks fine but then theres mitagation so spells DO hit harder then melee, if we could get armor that reduces spell power as much as we can reduce melee it would be a non-issue. this is not a Pyro post, its a SPvAP post.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander Cody101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobranoc View Post
    this is not a Pyro post, its a SPvAP post.
    However, you can't really look at these elements fairly in complete isolation. The whole Rift combat system is built up from its constituent parts, including
    - Attack power
    - Spell Power
    - Phys crit chance
    - Spell crit chance
    - Armour mitigation on physical damage
    - Spell resists for magical damages
    - etc. etc.

    The other point I don't think anyone has mentioned is that Attack power benefits the physical damage auto attacks that sneak into the 8-10 secs required to build a combo -- in that time, the Mage has no auto attacks off the GCD. I know this won't amount to much, but it just serves to emphasise further that you can't simply deconstruct the combat system to its component parts to compare one finisher against a proc'd insta-cast Mage spell: that will never generate results that will 'look fair'.

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    Rift Master Kor Phaeron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dobranoc View Post
    this is not a Pyro post, its a SPvAP post.
    ok, then lets pick...say, caster cleric vs dps warrior

    hey look, warriors come on top by a huge margin. ergo, AP > SP


    the thing is, its a pyro post. because pyro > all
    Last edited by Kor Phaeron; 04-12-2011 at 04:51 AM.

  14. #14
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    SP scales much better then AP, thats why you can have a fresh 50 warrior doing 1k dps in E dungeons, and then full t2 warriors are doing what 1200? 200dps from greens and blues from leveling to 50 purps? while casters scale really well, how much do fresh 50 mages do in leveling gear and how much do they do in T2? thats the issue, warriors ARE strong because of there static numbers not because of AP. Also white damage is minimal, say rogue two 33dps weapons in melee range, so woot 66 dps, static, not modified by AP, not a whole lot of gain but i give you it is something, i feel casters should be using there wands between attacks (like auto attack but wands between instant casts and spells) if its not modified by SP/AP for casters then i dont even think any of there damaging spells should be lowered to be honest, makes the wand something more then a stat stick.

  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody101 View Post
    However, you can't really look at these elements fairly in complete isolation. The whole Rift combat system is built up from its constituent parts
    ...

    The other point I don't think anyone has mentioned is that Attack power benefits the physical damage auto attacks that sneak into the 8-10 secs required to build a combo -- in that time, the Mage has no auto attacks off the GCD.
    Understood that the combat system is complex, but in the given example (MM vs Pyro) ... ranged autoattacks don't work while moving, and even when standing still, they don't go off consistently. They stop for casts, and sometimes don't restart. Even if you use Hit and Run, your ranged autoattacks don't go off consistently while you're strafing.

    In the 10 seconds of the given example, you might see 4 autoattacks IF you are standing still AND not casting AND it doesn't break. It doesn't amount to much. Lastly, In a pvp scenario, its the spike damage that kills you, and thats what ranged rogues seem to be lacking in. Everything else is outhealed by a minor HoT.

    In my understanding, if you have managed to build up 5 combo points (with weak damage and lots of GCD), your 'finisher' should be just that. Especially given that combo points don't transfer if you switch targets. To stay on a single target through several global cooldowns in a volatile group pvp situation only to get to a lacklustre finisher is just lame.

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