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Thread: Other issue with balance besides Pyros

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    Soulwalker
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    Default Other issue with balance besides Pyros

    I know how some classes right now do too much burst damage, and I agree no class should be capable of 1 to 3 shot another player. I belive this will be fixed in time. What I found a much higher problem in PVP (not PVE) is how damge output/burst is balanced vs. healing output/burst. You may ask: What am I talking about?

    What I am saying is that some rogue souls crit for 1.5k on finisher with luke warm damage in between (unless you are NB where proc damage and dots helps a lot), or even if you are warrior and you doing better burst then rogue, but you are facing someone who is healer or has healer in background.

    Healers can crit for 4k+ on some of their heals not counting all their proc hots and shields, etc they have. So even when warrior or rogue debuffs target healing by 50%, when heal occurs it can fully heal target if not by large %. Considering the burst is so much lower on the side of damage matches are more often won by who has most heals.

    I expect trolls to pop and state that healing is fine and L2P.

    Good team will be able to kill targets, but it should not take 3-4 people to drop one target who is being healed. Since that is the case often you see teams with good dps but with less healers loose since other team can take 2 healers and few dps and still run objectives since they will not be killable unless you bring a lot larger force against them.

    I hope devs have chance to see this post and consider how to adjust balance of healing vs. damage in PVP without hurting PVE which depands on current strength of heals.


    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara aylictal's Avatar
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    i crit people with spells like healing breath for 2.5kish, if i tidal surge before it, it can reach 3.3-3.5k.

    my biggest heal i've ever done, was a critted tidal surged deluge on a target with 6 hots running. deluge healed for about around 4.5k.

    you throw 1 champion on that target, and he crits (which isn't hard, considering how much chance a champion has to crit), and that target then has a 50% heal debuff applied, those 3-4k crits turn into 1.5-2k crits. if you can't manage to kill someone by doing more than 750-1kdps, then that target shouldn't die if it's getting healed because quite frankly, it's harder to heal people in a game like this than to just pick a target and "start nukin".

    every additional assist you have halves that dps requirement i listed. if you and a buddy can't manage to pull 500dps on a target that's getting healed, it's you that's at fault, not the game mechanics.

    healing is actually pretty balanced. the only issues i have with clerics right now is their inability to remove heal debuffs. while it's moderate, there is no way for a cleric to keep someone up if they have 2 dps on them who are properly geared and actually use these things i previously described.
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    You assuming that warriors do as much damage as they used to. Currently the damage in PVP by physical classes is much lower and with some decent healer it takes at least 3 people to try to burn through 1 persons health (sometimes more). What makes this worst is that in avg. PVP match you have multiple healers some are jsut some residual aoe heals. Considering how strong are the heals of the burst clerics, DPS has to focus in large numbers to burn through target or one of the "OP" classes has to get some lucky burst on the Target.

    Even when dps tries to switch to healer (which is damn hard since they often are deep behind lines, especialy warden can have hots running on multiple targets adn burst healing so high that kills are more issue of luck before healers run out mana then actual balanced game design.

    Problem is you stated you can with debuff crit for 2k heals, not counting all other hots which are runnign at same time, physcial dps can not burst taht much unless bunch of people get crits at same time. So your hots deal with any damage procs and additional damage while your big heal blows through any burst abilites that physical dps tries to use.

    Ans Since ne good Warden can keep hots runing on 5-6 people at max the ratio to kill other side is bad since if you lack even number of same quality healers what happens is you need double if not triple number of DPS to be on equal footing.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by cristoff View Post
    I know how some classes right now do too much burst damage, and I agree no class should be capable of 1 to 3 shot another player. I belive this will be fixed in time. What I found a much higher problem in PVP (not PVE) is how damge output/burst is balanced vs. healing output/burst. You may ask: What am I talking about?

    What I am saying is that some rogue souls crit for 1.5k on finisher with luke warm damage in between (unless you are NB where proc damage and dots helps a lot), or even if you are warrior and you doing better burst then rogue, but you are facing someone who is healer or has healer in background.

    Healers can crit for 4k+ on some of their heals not counting all their proc hots and shields, etc they have. So even when warrior or rogue debuffs target healing by 50%, when heal occurs it can fully heal target if not by large %. Considering the burst is so much lower on the side of damage matches are more often won by who has most heals.

    I expect trolls to pop and state that healing is fine and L2P.

    Good team will be able to kill targets, but it should not take 3-4 people to drop one target who is being healed. Since that is the case often you see teams with good dps but with less healers loose since other team can take 2 healers and few dps and still run objectives since they will not be killable unless you bring a lot larger force against them.

    I hope devs have chance to see this post and consider how to adjust balance of healing vs. damage in PVP without hurting PVE which depands on current strength of heals.


    Thank you.

    What good would a healer be if he couldn't keep anyone alive? I don't think it would be very easy to change the strength of PVP heals without affecting PVE heals.

  5. #5
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by cristoff View Post
    I know how some classes right now do too much burst damage, and I agree no class should be capable of 1 to 3 shot another player. I belive this will be fixed in time. What I found a much higher problem in PVP (not PVE) is how damge output/burst is balanced vs. healing output/burst. You may ask: What am I talking about?

    What I am saying is that some rogue souls crit for 1.5k on finisher with luke warm damage in between (unless you are NB where proc damage and dots helps a lot), or even if you are warrior and you doing better burst then rogue, but you are facing someone who is healer or has healer in background.

    Healers can crit for 4k+ on some of their heals not counting all their proc hots and shields, etc they have. So even when warrior or rogue debuffs target healing by 50%, when heal occurs it can fully heal target if not by large %. Considering the burst is so much lower on the side of damage matches are more often won by who has most heals.

    I expect trolls to pop and state that healing is fine and L2P.

    Good team will be able to kill targets, but it should not take 3-4 people to drop one target who is being healed. Since that is the case often you see teams with good dps but with less healers loose since other team can take 2 healers and few dps and still run objectives since they will not be killable unless you bring a lot larger force against them.

    I hope devs have chance to see this post and consider how to adjust balance of healing vs. damage in PVP without hurting PVE which depands on current strength of heals.


    Thank you.
    the thing is that those heals (3-4k) are the 3sec casts. If there is a rogue or a pet on you, those become 4.5+sec casts. In this time the rogues has already used 4 abilities. Add healing debuff and you are healing for 1.5-2k CRIT heals in the same time that a rogue performs 4attacks.

    most healing debuffs on melee dont even need to spent a gcd to use (NB, champ) and they consistently proc.

    about shields. Shields currently suck and need a buff. The most a healer could shield for is 1500hp with 30sec cd. That is with 51points in purifier, which is useless in pvp since he relies only on 3sec casts and has no way to lower the cast time or has anything that gives him mobility. So at most the shields you will be facing have 800-1200hp and have a 30sec cd, not really imba aren't they?

    The ONLY shield that a purifier can cast on himself is his personal too, the other 2 are for allies, and one of them has a 2min cd.

    This is why ALL the pvp heal builds rely on things like warden (mobility but not burst healing) OR justicar (-heal +survivability) and the pvp soul (-healing -surviability). Becasue if we dont we are as squishy as the next dps around the corner. When we do though, we are hard to kill, but we heal for much less than those 4k crit heals you see in pve.

  6. #6
    Champion of Telara
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    Hopefully, they will take another look at Warrior dps. Right now, it is still a bit too high. It should be below both Mages and Rogues.

    The probable cause is that Strikes like Lion is simply too powerful and is so low on the tree it can be used in almost every build.
    Last edited by Brad1959; 04-12-2011 at 02:48 AM.
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    Healers are balanced for PvE, where bosses hit for 4-5k on there burst, sometimes more. Players burst for 1-3k, and when a healer can instant cast heals for that much ontop of preventative things like hots and shields, it spikes someones survivle from a 1v1 situation to much more. if you have a healer they more or less act like 3 people. I do agree though a healer should be able to keep a target up against 2 people IF the healer isnt being CCed, but even if they are healer can hot and sit in the stun and pick up where they left off. healers survivle is to high when you can '/lol /s your not doing anything give up and ill let you walk away before my team gets here' even with a healing debuff... thats silly. i say how to fix it in pvp and not phase pve is with the WF buff, not only health buff but a healing debuff of like 25% and i see healers being inline in WFs but still be able to do there jobs in PVE.

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    You guys do realise that those healing debuffs stack don't you? So if you have a rogues debuff and a wars debuff those heals only hit for 25%?

    Healings fine in PvP. Healers need to be able to keep people alive or it would be pointless.

    If healers had that survivability AND could do damage then there would be a problem.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Boondocker's Avatar
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    Healing is balanced, at least for clerics. We have have a tough enough time already, we deal **** damage if we're in healing mode, and to get any survival abilities, we have to sacrifice a lot of healing throughput.
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  10. #10
    Rift Master Kor Phaeron's Avatar
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    healers crit for 4k heal to maybe, sometimes, save people from pyros. because you need that much (usually more) to heal thru a pyro.

    and sometimes the pyro will simply hit for 8k = GG

  11. #11
    Ascendant Xvvt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad1959 View Post
    Hopefully, they will take another look at Warrior dps. Right now, it is still a bit too high. It should be below both Mages and Rogues.

    The probable cause is that Strikes like Lion is simply too powerful and is so low on the tree it can be used in almost every build.
    lol, the good thing about Brad is I can count on him posting the exact same thing in every thread.

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    Prophet of Telara Kaladai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad1959 View Post
    Hopefully, they will take another look at Warrior dps. Right now, it is still a bit too high. It should be below both Mages and Rogues.

    The probable cause is that Strikes like Lion is simply too powerful and is so low on the tree it can be used in almost every build.
    Warrior damage in PVP is not high at all. They do average MELEE dps, almost 0 ranged and they are by far the most kiteable calling.
    And I'm a Rogue, mind you.
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  13. #13
    Telaran Dilvid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad1959 View Post
    Hopefully, they will take another look at Warrior dps. Right now, it is still a bit too high. It should be below both Mages and Rogues.

    The probable cause is that Strikes like Lion is simply too powerful and is so low on the tree it can be used in almost every build.
    It shouldn't be below any class. That isn't balanced. The DPS should roughly be the same however against certain class's they have counters/spec alterations thus looking like they DPS less against that class i.e Any toe to toe DPS against a warrior should 'look' lower than against a mage (simple equation of plate armor vs cloth armor), were as any ranged spell dps should in theory hit hard against none spell casters (if you've played any RP game the basis of int for resistances etc).

    Again roughly, every class should have a counter class or two. PvP isn't just a 'I can put out more damage that you' contest. It requires skill, timing and a plan. Yes, some classes apart from pyro's have issues too. Some of those classes issues are they are underpowered, others are overpowered. At the end of the day though there are still the counter classes, ie if you're in a codex and the opposite side are mainly casters and your a warrior, swap out to the VK class. If you don't like playing it and prefer to get wasted playing a different class then prepare to die alot and most likley loose. If you're a good pvp'er you will change and adapt to the situtation.

    I PvP on a DPS Cleric. I admit I own nearly everyone I come against but if I start seeing VK spells/abilities I try and avoid that person. I know I won't win.
    Last edited by Dilvid; 04-12-2011 at 09:26 AM.

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    Rift Master bubulu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey111 View Post
    You guys do realise that those healing debuffs stack don't you? So if you have a rogues debuff and a wars debuff those heals only hit for 25%?

    Healings fine in PvP. Healers need to be able to keep people alive or it would be pointless.

    If healers had that survivability AND could do damage then there would be a problem.
    The question is to what extent a healer should be able to keep "people" alive?

    Plus, a healer kills people via a dps that he heals, so it's pointless to say healer does 0 dps.

    Should a healer+dps > 2dps? >3 dps? or >4 dps? What's the value of a healer? Should a healer's value always be higher than 1 dps or 2 dps?

    In latter scenarios, you will always prefer to bring more healers than dps if a healer's value is much greater than 2 or 3 dps. Is this really what Trion intended?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpsmile View Post
    there is no way a mage could out dps a cleric in this game. sad to say but its true.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaladai View Post
    Warrior damage in PVP is not high at all. They do average MELEE dps, almost 0 ranged and they are by far the most kiteable calling.
    And I'm a Rogue, mind you.
    Well, if they have the VK pull they can be hard to kite.

    But thats less trying to kite them and more trying to get the hell away from the 5 pyros sitting behind him waiting to pull me. Or getting to the pyros, really depends on cooldowns.

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