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Thread: Player skill is IMBA, not classes

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Player skill is IMBA, not classes

    Skill is the most important factor and issues of class balance are secondary to this IMO. This game leaves a lot of room for the skill of the player to affect PvP outcomes. Just because you are the same level and equally well geared as your opponent doesn't entitle you to a close match. Against a skilled opponent, If you spec poorly, make poor decisions, have poor eye hand coordination etc you should get **** on in every match, and it should not be close.

    I personally like a game where the forums are filled with the frustrations of the vanquished, as it means the skill cap is high enough that PvP is more than just a coin toss / build battle where player skill is only a minor factor.

    This isn't to say that Trion shouldn't keep tweaking the classes, but these changes will amount to + or - 5-10%. Bad players will still get totally dominated, and skilled players will still have a great time dominating them.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    I agree. It takes a great deal of skill to stand in a circle and hit one button for an instant kill.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    i completely agree here, so far from that i met 99% of all pyro's are highly skilled players and 99% of all rogues are scrubs

    what i dont understand tho is since 1.1 warrior's skill seems to have declined

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelamar View Post
    Skill is the most important factor and issues of class balance are secondary to this IMO. This game leaves a lot of room for the skill of the player to affect PvP outcomes. Just because you are the same level and equally well geared as your opponent doesn't entitle you to a close match. Against a skilled opponent, If you spec poorly, make poor decisions, have poor eye hand coordination etc you should get **** on in every match, and it should not be close.

    I personally like a game where the forums are filled with the frustrations of the vanquished, as it means the skill cap is high enough that PvP is more than just a coin toss / build battle where player skill is only a minor factor.

    This isn't to say that Trion shouldn't keep tweaking the classes, but these changes will amount to + or - 5-10%. Bad players will still get totally dominated, and skilled players will still have a great time dominating them.
    This would be a true statement if all this were equal but they are not. Certain spec/callings are alot easier to play so lack of skill means nothing as long as play 1 button mashing warrior specs, or 1 button pyro.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelamar View Post
    Skill is the most important factor and issues of class balance are secondary to this IMO. This game leaves a lot of room for the skill of the player to affect PvP outcomes. Just because you are the same level and equally well geared as your opponent doesn't entitle you to a close match. Against a skilled opponent, If you spec poorly, make poor decisions, have poor eye hand coordination etc you should get **** on in every match, and it should not be close.

    I personally like a game where the forums are filled with the frustrations of the vanquished, as it means the skill cap is high enough that PvP is more than just a coin toss / build battle where player skill is only a minor factor.

    This isn't to say that Trion shouldn't keep tweaking the classes, but these changes will amount to + or - 5-10%. Bad players will still get totally dominated, and skilled players will still have a great time dominating them.
    I started a thread about being tired of QQ about class imba, and even I disagree with this. I think the game is too new to QQ about class imba yet, but yes some classes are very OP. Somehow I have enough "skill" to solo heals parties through endgame bosses, but not enough "skill" to survive 2 shots against a pyro

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    And personally, I think just about every class is where it needs to be outside of pyro. Melee rogues need to learn that their strength is 1v1 not group battles.... Its really common sense

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    No amount of skill makes up for a disparity in class balance. If an amazing player plays a weak/underpowered class, he will do average, if same player plays an overpowered class, he will absolutely break people.

  8. #8
    Champion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelamar View Post
    Skill is the most important factor and issues of class balance are secondary to this IMO. This game leaves a lot of room for the skill of the player to affect PvP outcomes. Just because you are the same level and equally well geared as your opponent doesn't entitle you to a close match. Against a skilled opponent, If you spec poorly, make poor decisions, have poor eye hand coordination etc you should get **** on in every match, and it should not be close.

    I personally like a game where the forums are filled with the frustrations of the vanquished, as it means the skill cap is high enough that PvP is more than just a coin toss / build battle where player skill is only a minor factor.

    This isn't to say that Trion shouldn't keep tweaking the classes, but these changes will amount to + or - 5-10%. Bad players will still get totally dominated, and skilled players will still have a great time dominating them.
    Yeah, skill has to be it. The 12 button rotations of Nightblade hybrids (which do 60% of Mage DPS) are definitely comparable to standing in a circle and two shotting people with one button.

    Let me guess, your main is a Mage?
    Kashta, 50 Rogue / Gwythiant, 41 Cleric / Ampere, 37 Mage

  9. #9
    Ascendant Talamare's Avatar
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    Skill only becomes the major factor when the game is balanced

    Also using something that is overpowered to win = No skill

    If someone was going around ****** face with Warlord in PvP, then yea he has skill
    It's not a damage meters fault you can't hit a certain dps and others similar to you can, it's the fault of your bad gear, bad spec, or bad rotation. So stop getting mad at the meters and invest some time into not being bad.

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  10. #10
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    1. Its being looked at, don believe me ? Go listen to the podcast.

    2. Yes skill is a major key to this game, if you're seriously using 12 hotkeys of abilities and etc, then you might just be overcomplicating things? >_> Not saying, just thinking.

    3. And no I do not play a mage, I play warrior and rogue, shocking isnt it?


    I feel that pyros need a slight adjustment in survivability and fulminate a longer CD, an instant cast that hits for more than a cinderburst kind of spell is abit silly, no matter what. Burst is the key to PvP so no wonder that people play the pyro.

    That being sad, I still feel that alot of the people whining just arent down to earth and wants to be OP themselves.

    ehm... why does skill have to do with class? or soul?

    Isnt skill to spec properly also skill?...

    There is more ways to measure skill than simply reaction time tbh.
    Last edited by NecroticBanshee; 04-11-2011 at 02:56 PM.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by NecroticBanshee View Post
    1. Its being looked at, don believe me ? Go listen to the podcast.
    The devs should really put such information on the forums, rather than rely on a podcast.

    Yes, i know that reply has nothing to do with what you said, or this topic's direction... But the primary place for finding developer's input has no place on a podcast and should instead be on the official forums! so i figure the two balance each other out.

    Pardon my interruption, carry on.

  12. #12
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    Yeah I would say building the right spec and gearing correctly is part of what skill is, in addition to positioning, timing, and reflexes. If a pyro is two shotting you, there isn't much that good reflexes can do as its your build and gear that suck.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Uhu, so appearantly, by pure chance, all the skilled people coincidentally chose to play pyromancer.

    And a lot of skilled champions quit after 1.1 I assume? Together with most of the skilled saboteurs?

    Statistically, level of skill is much more likely to be near evenly divided among all 4 main classes, considering how many people play rift.

    Therefore, when a class/soul combination appear that dominate others, it is very reasonable to assume that the class/soul combination in question is the cause of domination, NOT that a majority of the skilled players choose the same class/soul combination by pure chance.

    Claiming otherwise is absurd. Seems like certain pyromancers are suffering from illusions of grandeur, convincing themselves that it is their pure skill that allows them to easily dominate warfronts.

    When sabs were among the "lol-1-shot" souls, it was blindingly obvious to me (I play a rogue), and all the other rogues in my guild that it was easymode.

    However, just like certain pyromancer are doing now, many saboteurs still came on these forums to defend their class, making laughable claims that it was not overpowered.

    A pattern emerges. Bad players who play easymode are able to win against other players and mistake their overpowered class abilites for "skill". They are therefore unable to understand why people ask for balancing to their class/soul combination, since they carry the misconception that they are simply better players.

    Meanwhile, the average and skilled players who try the easymode setup realize how little effort it takes to demolish other players with the class/soul in question and have fun with it while waiting for the nerfs they know are on the way.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meccros View Post
    i completely agree here, so far from that i met 99% of all pyro's are highly skilled players and 99% of all rogues are scrubs

    what i dont understand tho is since 1.1 warrior's skill seems to have declined
    QFT

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelamar View Post
    Skill is the most important factor and issues of class balance are secondary to this IMO. This game leaves a lot of room for the skill of the player to affect PvP outcomes. Just because you are the same level and equally well geared as your opponent doesn't entitle you to a close match. Against a skilled opponent, If you spec poorly, make poor decisions, have poor eye hand coordination etc you should get **** on in every match, and it should not be close.

    I personally like a game where the forums are filled with the frustrations of the vanquished, as it means the skill cap is high enough that PvP is more than just a coin toss / build battle where player skill is only a minor factor.

    This isn't to say that Trion shouldn't keep tweaking the classes, but these changes will amount to + or - 5-10%. Bad players will still get totally dominated, and skilled players will still have a great time dominating them.
    It's usually the most OP classes using th emost cookie cutter specs bringing up "skill".

    Skill is playing an off spec and making it work. Skill is taking an average class and winning vs OP classes.

    If a person is playing one of the most OP classes in a game, there is NO skill apart from learning what your abilities are, macroing them then falling asleep on the keyboard.

    If a class can instagib another class, that is not skill. That is a broken mechanic.

    Rift atm is not within 5%-10% balance. It doesn't matter if, for example, a rogue parses 1000 dps and my warrior parses 1100 dps if within the first few seconds of combat, my pre-nerf warrior could insta gib the rogue. That's broken mechanic.

    A pyro standing in GOS is the equivilent of a named elite 10 levels higher than you. You aren't winning even if you get lucky. He will gib you and there's little to no counter; no amount of skill except to run - which is not a skill. You're either dead or you're running or you've brought a lot of friends; none of which requires skill.

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