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Thread: The REAL issue with nerfing

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    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Default The REAL issue with nerfing

    Players grow accustomed to how their class plays. Depending on how much they play a separate class, if at all, they may understand and even accept that they may require toning down in some cases. However, they still grow accustomed to their class of choice. Then, a nerf hits. As I said, they may even be understanding of any nerfs (especially if they were bug related), but (and depending on nerf severity) they may not feel like they're playing the class they've been playing. A new player jumping into that class may find it adequate due to their inexperience, but the accustomed player may feel underwhelming now. They may even discover other specs superior and more effective to their previous one, but what they want to play is now underperforming in some fashion and to some extent, sometimes enough to turn the player off to the game. This will become especially true should the accustomed player switch classes entirely, especially so to ones recently buffed, and perceive no difference, or in fact an improvement, from their pre-nerfed status on their initial class. Then, the new players may even deem other specs much better and switch, or perceive themselves to be underperforming compared to others and lose interest in their initial class or even the game itself. After all, players want to play in their own way, and if that way is suddenly inferior or underperforming or just plain no longer fun then they have every reason to stop playing entirely.

    So long as a player still feels effective, or has their nerfs (be they perceived to be or factually overdone) compensated for, they can generally grow accustomed to their class again. Suffice it to say, though, they'll always remember how they worked originally. It may require experience with other classes and builds to really understand how reasonable or unreasonable their nerfs were, especially if they chose something underperforming compared to their alleged overperformance. However, most players can only become "reaccustomed" so many times, especially if they feel they were hit too hard in too many areas, and especially again should they feel only a small handful of things by comparison would have been sufficient in their perception, factual or biased.

    I, for one, am really hoping to see some Beastmaster buffs come 1.2 to address some of our now wasteful and even inferior skills, as well as other issues we're still (or now) plagued by. If we don't, especially if we're in fact further nerfed (or just left alone) I'm not sure how much interest in Rift will remain with me. From the sounds of things, I'm sure there are many Void Knights who'd share in that sentiment. I'm currently the only active player in my guild right now, as well, until "pyros are nerfed" and to a lesser extent "rogues get buffed". If 1.2 doesn't treat at least me or them right I don't know how long I'll stick around which is a damn shame for a game with the potential that Rift has.
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  2. #2
    Shadowlander
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    using big words and paragraphs doesn't change the fact that you just said, "fix this or i quit," without adding any substantive value to the thousands of similar posts.

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    This falls under the category of ez moders suddenly having to play on normal mode and finding it too hard.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
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    To be perfectly honest the only things that troubled me with the warrior nerfs was the tank nerfs. PVE dps wise beast master is still very good with some spec adjustments. PVP wise i had to change to some riftblade in my champ spec but still i can do decent.

    The only problem are mages who need tweaked a bit but are still manageable if you notice them nailing you early enough. I understand the pain of getting used to being a little op but warriors in pvp/pve dps are still fine. Just need a little tweaking with tanking since rogue/cleric specs can generally out tank us.

    Once the initial shock of being nerfed is over and you adjust your specs accordingly, I have found that i have just as much fun as I did before. I think people just fall in love with a certain spec and when its not as viable as it once was they get disenchanted with their class. However with an hour or so changing specs trying them out on the dummy boss for pve dps or in wf's for pvp you can find something that works.

    Just takes time and maybe some forum reading to figure this stuff out. I would tell your guild mates to just take some time to make adjustments to their spec.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched
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    Translation: I used to WTFPWN you, now I am on equal footing...........I don't like this.

    Expecting to be buffed because you now do similiar damage to the rest of us in unreasonable and childish. The top DPS in my raid is still a beastmaster Warrior.

    I will repeat.........the top dps in my raid is still a dps warrior. He is usually doing a solid 900 dps.

    Most of our rogues do around 800dps.

    Mages are using a necro exploit to get 900dps but without the exploit would be getting 600-700.

    Whine more while still having superior CC, superior damage, superior endurance. We have one warrior who's record is 50......yes i said 50 killing blows in a single scenario.

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlebomb View Post
    Translation: I used to WTFPWN you, now I am on equal footing...........I don't like this.

    Expecting to be buffed because you now do similiar damage to the rest of us in unreasonable and childish. The top DPS in my raid is still a beastmaster Warrior.

    I will repeat.........the top dps in my raid is still a dps warrior. He is usually doing a solid 900 dps.

    Most of our rogues do around 800dps.

    Mages are using a necro exploit to get 900dps but without the exploit would be getting 600-700.

    Whine more while still having superior CC, superior damage, superior endurance. We have one warrior who's record is 50......yes i said 50 killing blows in a single scenario.
    4-5 hotfix killed beastmasters, im finding both riftblades and champions outparse them now. hell on my rogue im tying on many fights vs the similarly geared beastmasters that used to destroy me by 150-200dps.

    i understand the OP (being a rogue), especially with how powerful mages are right now.. but im honestly 100% fine with mages being where they are now as it only makes things easier in pve... pvp can/should be hard so i don't care about pvp balance (even though im in a pvp guild). basically im a rogue in full t2 with 2 29.2dps daggers and a 36dps bow, there is nothing short of greenscale i can do to raise my dps... i do 800dps... undergeared warriors in blues still do 900+, and equally geared warriors (that aren't beastmaster) are hitting 1k-1.1k... this is on the dummy mind you!!! to add insult to injury, i have to solve a quantum physics calculation to reach 800dps on the dummy, my warrior friends mash a grand total of 2 buttons to reach 900+.

    beastmasters need some love, they already have to use a pet, they should get some love, pyros may need some tweaking, or at least ground of skill... i would not adjust their dmg though, they need to be able to blow people up, that is all they have... i have faith in trion they will fix rogues... we have so many glaring issues there is just not enough space to name them...
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    So much for hoping for replies that aren't trolling idiots.

    I main BM. The only attacks from Champion I use are Deathblow and Mighty Blow. Against a single target, I'm using all BM attacks unless I can get a Deathblow off. I have champion for the charge and the snare because a BM could be kited endlessly into oblivion without those two skills. I play on a PvP server. I used to hold my own against pretty much anybody. I'm now facing increasing amounts of of enemy players I'm not even really a threat to. And then when you factor in my PvE effectiveness and our just plain lackluster skills, like how Feral Sweep was nerfed so hard that Champion's Bladefury does ~35% more damage after the bleed is factored in for 10 more energy. Fights are lasting a good 5-6 seconds longer at minimum (even green cons), and some of our abilities were SO overnerfed (or just overlooked) that I literally have no reason from a DPS standpoint to remain BM whatsoever. I'd in fact gain more utility AND damage if I cut BM and went heavily into champion. I only have 18 in champ right now and do not have enough for Titan's Strike, I do not have nor want Titan's Strike.

    Trion nerfed me when it was bugs and very particular builds that made us "overpowered". I'm now hugely underwhelming because I'm not using those crutch builds because I do not want to be forced into some ****ing cookie cutter, and that's what they are, they're crutches. When SLI is rebalanced deep into the paragon tree, you'll see what's wrong with warriors. Seriously, play a warrior without SLI. I refuse to use it because I want to avoid the heartache I'll feel the moment it gets nerfed or put deeper into the tree. I've wanted to tack on Reaver for some extra survivability and Binding of Affliction, but since the healing got nerfed and I cannot use Soldier's Bearing with Binding I'm thinking of taking some paragon for the strength buff and replacing the pisspoor worthless and bugged Backhanded Blow with Rising Waterfall. And I still won't use SLI.

    Hokonoso, thanks for the backup. Can't believe these kids.
    An Experiment In Design - Deioth's Warrior Soul Revamps - More In The Works
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  8. #8
    Soulwalker SWBgHz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deioth View Post
    Players grow accustomed to how their class plays. Depending on how much they play a separate class, if at all, they may understand and even accept that they may require toning down in some cases. However, they still grow accustomed to their class of choice. Then, a nerf hits. As I said, they may even be understanding of any nerfs (especially if they were bug related), but (and depending on nerf severity) they may not feel like they're playing the class they've been playing. A new player jumping into that class may find it adequate due to their inexperience, but the accustomed player may feel underwhelming now. They may even discover other specs superior and more effective to their previous one, but what they want to play is now underperforming in some fashion and to some extent, sometimes enough to turn the player off to the game. This will become especially true should the accustomed player switch classes entirely, especially so to ones recently buffed, and perceive no difference, or in fact an improvement, from their pre-nerfed status on their initial class. Then, the new players may even deem other specs much better and switch, or perceive themselves to be underperforming compared to others and lose interest in their initial class or even the game itself. After all, players want to play in their own way, and if that way is suddenly inferior or underperforming or just plain no longer fun then they have every reason to stop playing entirely.

    So long as a player still feels effective, or has their nerfs (be they perceived to be or factually overdone) compensated for, they can generally grow accustomed to their class again. Suffice it to say, though, they'll always remember how they worked originally. It may require experience with other classes and builds to really understand how reasonable or unreasonable their nerfs were, especially if they chose something underperforming compared to their alleged overperformance. However, most players can only become "reaccustomed" so many times, especially if they feel they were hit too hard in too many areas, and especially again should they feel only a small handful of things by comparison would have been sufficient in their perception, factual or biased.

    I, for one, am really hoping to see some Beastmaster buffs come 1.2 to address some of our now wasteful and even inferior skills, as well as other issues we're still (or now) plagued by. If we don't, especially if we're in fact further nerfed (or just left alone) I'm not sure how much interest in Rift will remain with me. From the sounds of things, I'm sure there are many Void Knights who'd share in that sentiment. I'm currently the only active player in my guild right now, as well, until "pyros are nerfed" and to a lesser extent "rogues get buffed". If 1.2 doesn't treat at least me or them right I don't know how long I'll stick around which is a damn shame for a game with the potential that Rift has.
    NERFs are always the tool of uncreative DEVs. If A is kicking butt in comparison to B and C then B and C need to be fixed, A doesn't need to be made to suck as much as B and C. Bolster the weak to be on par with the strength because if you balance by NERF you will NEVER reach balance you will simply create new flavors of the month and drive players insane and, ultimately, dumb down the game.

  9. #9
    Shield of Telara
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    WTB a dumbass filter for the forums... so this kinda crap never gets to be posted...

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll03 View Post
    WTB a dumbass filter for the forums... so this kinda crap never gets to be posted...
    Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Someone has an opinion. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
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  11. #11
    Champion Red Exodus's Avatar
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    I understand what you're saying OP, it's a similar thing with marksman. I played MM for probably an hour in the beta so I really don't have a good idea of what it was capable of but I've heard from other rogues that the post-beta nerfs destroyed the soul. I only picked up MM about 3 weeks after launch so I have no idea how bad the nerfs affected MM but I imagine someone who might have liked the class a lot in the earlier betas would hate it now.

    People also need to bare in mind that were certain bugs or oversights that would have made certain classes overpowered, such as sabs having a high crit rate due to that mechanic where if 1 charge was a crit, all charges would crit when denoted, it was like 5 crits for the price of 1. Other players and I were well aware of that before the game launched and agreed that it should not be so but it didn't get patched till 1.1 where they fixed the armor penetration bug and nerfed charge booster.

    Also OP I'd advise you to not respond to nonconstructive posts, it reduces the productivity of your thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    go play a fps pvp in mmorpgs did nothing but bring out the worst in the cummunity
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  12. #12
    Plane Walker Deioth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Exodus View Post
    I understand what you're saying OP, it's a similar thing with marksman. I played MM for probably an hour in the beta so I really don't have a good idea of what it was capable of but I've heard from other rogues that the post-beta nerfs destroyed the soul. I only picked up MM about 3 weeks after launch so I have no idea how bad the nerfs affected MM but I imagine someone who might have liked the class a lot in the earlier betas would hate it now.

    People also need to bare in mind that were certain bugs or oversights that would have made certain classes overpowered, such as sabs having a high crit rate due to that mechanic where if 1 charge was a crit, all charges would crit when denoted, it was like 5 crits for the price of 1. Other players and I were well aware of that before the game launched and agreed that it should not be so but it didn't get patched till 1.1 where they fixed the armor penetration bug and nerfed charge booster.

    Also OP I'd advise you to not respond to nonconstructive posts, it reduces the productivity of your thread.
    It really is a major issue when we get nerfs AND bug fixes. The bug fix may have been more than enough in many cases. In fact, as I hear it, Paragon became so underpowered after its bugs were fixed that it received some major buffing during the alpha shard tests. Most legitimate cases of OPness are over dramatized by people upset by this or that, usually in a tunnel vision PvP viewpoint. Some minor tweaks usually are sufficient. Instead, we had some major bug fixes and some rather sweeping nerfs to the same builds, AND buffs in whole and individually to a calling that needed the most help in the leveling ranges and not at max level. We've seen a swap of one extreme to the other and very comparable balance issues.

    Trolling trolls helps bump the thread and make me smile
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  13. #13
    Sword of Telara Fasc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWBgHz View Post
    NERFs are always the tool of uncreative DEVs. If A is kicking butt in comparison to B and C then B and C need to be fixed, A doesn't need to be made to suck as much as B and C. Bolster the weak to be on par with the strength because if you balance by NERF you will NEVER reach balance you will simply create new flavors of the month and drive players insane and, ultimately, dumb down the game.
    No nerfs are the hated solution of any player that never wants to give up any of their current power, but is a perfectly acceptable balancing tool.

    You set the benchmark for T2 DPS to be some arbitrary number and therefore balance mob/boss health and other factors around that number. 9 out of 10 DPS specs are hitting within 5-10% of that value, and one DPS spec is 25% above that value. You nerf the outlier because it does not meet your standards. Done and done, no emotion attached.

    Your own poor use of logic can be used (if you like ignoring logic that is) to "prove" why BUFFS should never be used either.

    Nerfs and buffs are fine when done appropriately. The player base often has difficulty coming to any consensus about this though because Player A over here is doing 1k DPS, and anyone doing above should be nerfed and anyone below should be buffed, but Player B over here is doing 800 DPS, and thinks the same thing. Since Trion isn't going to tell us what "appropriate" DPS looks like or how much margin for error they are willing to accept, players will endlessly debate on what is and isn't appropriate and always always complain when something is nerfed. Doesn't make the players right though. (Also doesn't make Trion automatically right either, but they're privvy to information we are not, so place your trust where you will.)

    EDIT: Oh and on the topic of bugs, well you are going to make mistakes in creating a large scale product like this (coding on any grand scale tends to be non-fool proof without a lot of iteration). You see outliers, you fix the outliers. Days later you see bugs, you fix the bugs. Now the outliers you fixed are outliers again, but in a different direction, so you fix that. You can't really magic 8-ball some problems, particularly when the system may be behaving in ways you aren't expecting, so you have to whack-a-mole the problems as they arise and stress test as much as is feasibly possible. Ideally all bugs would be fixed before all balancing passes... but bugs will exist from now until the end of this game and I don't think anyone wants to wait around 5-6 months or more for bugs to be fixed (that may or may not affect class balance) before getting a look-see about low (or high) DPS numbers.
    Last edited by Fasc; 04-12-2011 at 09:49 AM.
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  14. #14
    Champion Red Exodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fasc View Post
    No nerfs are the hated solution of any player that never wants to give up any of their current power, but is a perfectly acceptable balancing tool.

    You set the benchmark for T2 DPS to be some arbitrary number and therefore balance mob/boss health and other factors around that number. 9 out of 10 DPS specs are hitting within 5-10% of that value, and one DPS spec is 25% above that value. You nerf the outlier because it does not meet your standards. Done and done, no emotion attached.

    Your own poor use of logic can be used (if you like ignoring logic that is) to "prove" why BUFFS should never be used either.

    Nerfs and buffs are fine when done appropriately. The player base often has difficulty coming to any consensus about this though because Player A over here is doing 1k DPS, and anyone doing above should be nerfed and anyone below should be buffed, but Player B over here is doing 800 DPS, and thinks the same thing. Since Trion isn't going to tell us what "appropriate" DPS looks like or how much margin for error they are willing to accept, players will endlessly debate on what is and isn't appropriate and always always complain when something is nerfed. Doesn't make the players right though. (Also doesn't make Trion automatically right either, but they're privvy to information we are not, so place your trust where you will.)

    EDIT: Oh and on the topic of bugs, well you are going to make mistakes in creating a large scale product like this (coding on any grand scale tends to be non-fool proof without a lot of iteration). You see outliers, you fix the outliers. Days later you see bugs, you fix the bugs. Now the outliers you fixed are outliers again, but in a different direction, so you fix that. You can't really magic 8-ball some problems, particularly when the system may be behaving in ways you aren't expecting, so you have to whack-a-mole the problems as they arise and stress test as much as is feasibly possible. Ideally all bugs would be fixed before all balancing passes... but bugs will exist from now until the end of this game and I don't think anyone wants to wait around 5-6 months or more for bugs to be fixed (that may or may not affect class balance) before getting a look-see about low (or high) DPS numbers.
    I can agree with this, there's really not much else to say about how the buff/nerf process should be done.

    I think once people drop the whole 'chicken little' act they'll realize that the developers are aware of the problems and are working towards the solutions. People seem to think that this whole class balance thing can be done overnight, but last I checked WoW was still grappling with balance, Aion messes around with their balance with each major patch, and DCUO is struggling to get people to stop spamming pistols and exploits.

    The only MMO I played where people didn't constantly complain about balance was Runescape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dink View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    go play a fps pvp in mmorpgs did nothing but bring out the worst in the cummunity
    In one post, you've managed to bring out the worst in capitalization, punctuation and spelling.

  15. #15
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWBgHz View Post
    NERFs are always the tool of uncreative DEVs. If A is kicking butt in comparison to B and C then B and C need to be fixed, A doesn't need to be made to suck as much as B and C. Bolster the weak to be on par with the strength because if you balance by NERF you will NEVER reach balance you will simply create new flavors of the month and drive players insane and, ultimately, dumb down the game.
    That is a rather simplistic view of things. It isn't ever done the way you describe because in most cases when something needs a nerf for PvP it usually needs it for PvE as well. So if we followed your model, boosting B and C, theN PvE content 1-1000 needs to be rebalanced to affect those boosts done to the characters. So no...nerfs are not the tool of uncreative Devs.

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