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Thread: i don't get why rogues need a buff...

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default i don't get why rogues need a buff...

    first of all lemme say yes, im a mage but I'm not pyro. I run deb/warlock and sc/warlock which i love.

    but uhhhh i was taking a look at the rogue trees... and are most rogues even aware that they can have 13 seconds of invulnerability.... on a two minute cooldown, and STILL have burst dps/stealth/utility?

    nobody finds that odd eh....

    just wondering.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched FxyO's Avatar
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    They're fine. people are just used to pressing 2 keys and one shotting people.
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  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    Default if you don't know why do you post?

    first of all lemme say yes, im a mage but I'm not pyro. I run deb/warlock and sc/warlock which i love
    IF your not a rouge you shouldn't talk at all since you don't know nothing.
    Looking in a tree (i'm almost sure you where looking at RiftStalker) and getting out some information didn't make you the point of why rouges feels not balanced.

    And to be precise the first 10 seconds (since you where refering to Defer Death) the damage is only backed-up and then it will be done after 10 second in a single blow that will ,at 90%, kill you.

    Rift Stalker is a Tanking tree not a dps one.Rogue Tanking is fine and don't need any buff/nerf.

    All the problem of rogues are coming from meele builds (ranged builds are fine as i see in the forum) where Bladedancer is based on dodge and so in a raid is almost useless and to assassin that have a good burst but after the first 15 sec of fight they loose all the damage so the are ALMOST useless in raid.
    The only viable soul is Nightblade that a lot of ppl don't find to be fun.

    I hope you have a more clean vision of why the rogue forum is so full of posts.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Mainvein's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalima83 View Post
    IF your not a rouge you shouldn't talk at all since you don't know nothing.
    Looking in a tree (i'm almost sure you where looking at RiftStalker) and getting out some information didn't make you the point of why rouges feels not balanced.

    And to be precise the first 10 seconds (since you where refering to Defer Death) the damage is only backed-up and then it will be done after 10 second in a single blow that will ,at 90%, kill you.

    Rift Stalker is a Tanking tree not a dps one.Rogue Tanking is fine and don't need any buff/nerf.

    All the problem of rogues are coming from meele builds (ranged builds are fine as i see in the forum) where Bladedancer is based on dodge and so in a raid is almost useless and to assassin that have a good burst but after the first 15 sec of fight they loose all the damage so the are ALMOST useless in raid.
    The only viable soul is Nightblade that a lot of ppl don't find to be fun.

    I hope you have a more clean vision of why the rogue forum is so full of posts.
    Look sins while i love them cant be the stealth grief class and the main dps class at the same time it simply is not fair. To increases their dps you would have to scale back their bleeds for PvP to be inline where they are now. In raid for every class let me repeat that every class they go with the best spec for raid even warriors are forced into paragon champ build so you guys get 0 right to complain. Add in the fact that rogues have more utility then any other class and some of these demands sound more like whining. Granted I would like to see some changes to Bladedancer (but again in pve solo aoe grind bladedancers top the charts). The sad thing is rogues want to be top dps when they have so much utility and that simply is not fair. you cant heal and have to best dps at the same time its unreasonable. There has to be some trade off for all that utility.
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  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainvein View Post
    you cant heal and have to best dps at the same time its unreasonable. There has to be some trade off for all that utility.
    Classes shouldn't be judged according to their breadth but according to their depth. There is one spot in any twenty man raid for a bard - any other places are better given to Archon's or Chloro's.

    So apart from bard (which has really crap dps, which is fine, since it isn't a DPS class), what wonderful utility do rogues bring? A little CC that can be done better by mages? Spell interrupts that are in a poor dps tree (blade dancer) and can be done just as well by warriors?

    So if rogues cannot compete on DPS, why would a guild that is aiming to progress take more than one rogue along to a raid?

    In the current design, rogues have to be able to compete in DPS. We don't need to be best - in an ideal situation, I'd say that there should be multiple melee builds from different classes vying for top melee dps, and the same goes for ranged.

    Posters should also be careful not to confuse PvP and PvE considerations - as happens in almost every one of these threads.

    DPS is a measure that is only appropriate to PvE - if you argue about PvP in a DPS thread then you are in the wrong place. Other things matter far more in PvP (such as burst).
    Last edited by cathartic; 04-09-2011 at 01:50 AM.

  6. #6
    Sword of Telara
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    lack of burst
    lack of survivability
    lack of DPS
    lack of stealth

    if you go stealth you dont go survivability,if you go burst you won't find it(sabs are dead),if you go DPS(you won't find it).

    also if i can kill a player each 2 minutes and then go afk then im not sure this class is so fun...
    i guess you are suggesting to kill each 2 minutes 1 player(maybe) and then just go to eat a sandwich or something.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by loknasty View Post
    first of all lemme say yes, im a mage but I'm not pyro. I run deb/warlock and sc/warlock which i love.

    but uhhhh i was taking a look at the rogue trees... and are most rogues even aware that they can have 13 seconds of invulnerability.... on a two minute cooldown, and STILL have burst dps/stealth/utility?

    nobody finds that odd eh....

    just wondering.
    I was unaware that a 51 point Riftstalker tank build was a stealthy and burst dps build. Oh and I still have not gotten Scatter the Shadows to negate the damage at the end of Defer Death to work yet. I suppose we should start complaining about mages being able to have CC immunity, 30% damage reduction while draining mana and energy from all enemies around them and at the same time doing lots of healing?

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple
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    Im playing melee rogue and I think I got enough tools/cds and cc in pvp. Well I got more than in wow but im still using like 10 buttons less in rift.

    PvE dps could get little boost like 5-10%.
    Last edited by Nalak; 04-09-2011 at 02:16 AM.

  9. #9
    Sword of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalak View Post
    Im playing melee rogue and I think I got enough tools/cds and cc in pvp. Well I got more than in wow but im still using like 10 buttons less in rift.

    PvE dps could get little boost like 5-10%.
    you haven't met a pyro yet...

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Dhamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nodisplay View Post
    you haven't met a pyro yet...
    Or, has met several without RedWings and their 2min 45s Fulminate cooldown up.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
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    Or I have picked up quite good skills to counter that pyro. You dont just pick all damage boost skills if going for pvp, those are for pve.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by loknasty View Post
    first of all lemme say yes, im a mage but I'm not pyro. I run deb/warlock and sc/warlock which i love.

    but uhhhh i was taking a look at the rogue trees... and are most rogues even aware that they can have 13 seconds of invulnerability.... on a two minute cooldown, and STILL have burst dps/stealth/utility?

    nobody finds that odd eh....

    just wondering.
    because:

    Tanks do maore damage and have more defence han us
    The tank ranged spec does more damage with a handfull of points in it than a heavily specced ranger or marksman
    It takes a mage 2 seconds to do the same damage that it takes a saboteur 6-7 seconds to do
    Cleric dps specs do more damage than a rogue does
    Rogues have the lowest dps, lowest defence and lowest utility of the 4 callings. We are better at nothing than any other class.

    because all we want is to be equal - not better - equal.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auchter View Post
    because:

    Tanks do maore damage and have more defence han us
    The tank ranged spec does more damage with a handfull of points in it than a heavily specced ranger or marksman
    It takes a mage 2 seconds to do the same damage that it takes a saboteur 6-7 seconds to do
    Cleric dps specs do more damage than a rogue does
    Rogues have the lowest dps, lowest defence and lowest utility of the 4 callings. We are better at nothing than any other class.

    because all we want is to be equal - not better - equal.
    I quess you talking about pve cos in pvp dps doesnt matter

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cathartic View Post
    Classes shouldn't be judged according to their breadth but according to their depth. There is one spot in any twenty man raid for a bard - any other places are better given to Archon's or Chloro's.

    So apart from bard (which has really crap dps, which is fine, since it isn't a DPS class), what wonderful utility do rogues bring? A little CC that can be done better by mages? Spell interrupts that are in a poor dps tree (blade dancer) and can be done just as well by warriors?

    So if rogues cannot compete on DPS, why would a guild that is aiming to progress take more than one rogue along to a raid?

    In the current design, rogues have to be able to compete in DPS. We don't need to be best - in an ideal situation, I'd say that there should be multiple melee builds from different classes vying for top melee dps, and the same goes for ranged.

    Posters should also be careful not to confuse PvP and PvE considerations - as happens in almost every one of these threads.

    DPS is a measure that is only appropriate to PvE - if you argue about PvP in a DPS thread then you are in the wrong place. Other things matter far more in PvP (such as burst).
    Thier breadth is very much a valid quality by which to judge. But not in spite of depth, but along side it. Depth x breadth...so to speak. Souls with more sustained dps will find the forefront of pve useage. While being dwarfed in utilization by souls with higher burst, more utility/cc, or simply more survivability in pvp. The soul with the highest sustained dps should not also be the soul with the most burst dps, and has ccs and survivability to boot. It would be best at all things, and it'd be what everyone played. (Well, most) This is typically what people come to refer to as OP.

    Your claim that only 1 bard should be included in a 20 man raid is peculiar. You suggest a combination of Archons and Chloros to fill the remaining 19 positions? I would like to be on whatever it is you are on, it sounds fun. I fail to see how more than 1 archon would be useful. I can see how more than 1, but not 18, chloros would be useful. However, a Chloro is a healer, and again i fail to see how a Chloro (Or any healer) is relevant to discussing rogues....excet in that it is exactly the role rogues cannot fill. But you seem to suggest you don't like that they are required? Anyway, your comment seems ill concieved in the least, or purposfully misleading at the worst.

    Your second paragraph is just questions. However, they are questions with false meaning imbedded within them. Questions like these are designed to trap the askee into answering them within the preposterous context cooked up by the asker. There are a whole host of utility and CCs available to the rogue. These utility/CC abilities are similar and varied. There is some overlap with other callings, yes, including but not limited to mage. That it true with all calling, including, but not limited to...lol, mage. This included spell interupts, the other primarily melee based calling also has comparable spell interupts. This is logical. Blade dancer, while you presume is not dps friendly, is actually quite dps friendly.

    Again, a question with imbeded falseties. Rogues can compete in dps. And your question suggests that "there can be only one". Which is convoluted at best. Rogues can be quite effective with a Nightblade hybrid build in dps. They also may quite functional tanks. As well as have support role, bard. Do any of these just mash 2-3 buttons as compete well? Nope.

    People are not confusing the viability of roles/specs in PvP and PvE so much as you are unrealitically attemting to make them exclusive. High sustained dps and burst dps, believe it or not, are incredibly related to one another. Again, a spec with high sustained dps, ie the "raid spec" should absolutely not have the best burst and utility/cc as well. This will lead to an abuse of that spec to dominate in PvP. Which you may not consider important. That's fine, but it is. Just as pve balance is important as well. Neither moreso. Although trion will likey favor pve balance, it apears to be thier aim, imo. But, just to be sure you understand, I'll reiterate. A high sustained dps spec, has implications in pvp. There are uses for that on the battlefield, in case you were unaware. Someone with high sustained dps can put incredible pressure on the opponent. Couple that with almost any amount of added utility/cc and burst, and you will be dealing with a juggernaught. That's why people with pvp related concerns might bring issue to a "dps" thread. Especially one that is not clearly label as such. Seeing as the title of said threat doesn't include "pve" in it, not "raid" or "instance" or "mob" it in fact does not even include "dps" in it. This thread is about rogues. And specifically the buffs they don't need.

  15. #15
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    So burst dps in pvp doesnt matter....

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