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Thread: Symetric vs. Asymetric

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Symetric vs. Asymetric

    Lets apply this to Classes.

    In a symetric class design all classes would have the same options available to them.
    - (opinion) players would tend to reject symetrical class design. Every class feels the same since they all have the same options available to them.

    In an asymetric class design classes have varried and different options. This means cerain classes have advantages (and disadvantages) to them.
    - (opinion) players are easy to cry foul and "this is not balanced" because Class X has an ability that my class does not.
    - The challenge is making sure that the advantages and disadvantages of each class bear a similar weight. I say similar because there is not just Class balance, but interclass balance as well.

    Compare Checkers to Chess. Same board completly different games.
    Checkers all the pieces are the same. Symetrical.
    Chess each player has the same pieces (symetrical), but the pieces are different.(asymetrical)
    -The queen is the most powerful piece. However for all of its power its the king that is the most important piece.

    So when you ask should all things be equal and balanced....are you sure thats what you really want? OR are you simply looking at 1 number and placing all of the value that class has to offer on that one number?

  2. #2
    Shield of Telara baph's Avatar
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    Basically when people talk about "balance" what they really mean is: "I just got back from a warfront and we lost so I feel whatever class I play sucks. I'm not taking into consideration player skill, levels, specs, equipment, lack of healers, enchants, or rng."
    Last edited by baph; 04-06-2011 at 10:23 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant Galibier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrargore View Post
    Lets apply this to Classes.

    In a symetric class design all classes would have the same options available to them.
    - (opinion) players would tend to reject symetrical class design. Every class feels the same since they all have the same options available to them.

    In an asymetric class design classes have varried and different options. This means cerain classes have advantages (and disadvantages) to them.
    - (opinion) players are easy to cry foul and "this is not balanced" because Class X has an ability that my class does not.
    - The challenge is making sure that the advantages and disadvantages of each class bear a similar weight. I say similar because there is not just Class balance, but interclass balance as well.

    Compare Checkers to Chess. Same board completly different games.
    Checkers all the pieces are the same. Symetrical.
    Chess each player has the same pieces (symetrical), but the pieces are different.(asymetrical)
    -The queen is the most powerful piece. However for all of its power its the king that is the most important piece.

    So when you ask should all things be equal and balanced....are you sure thats what you really want? OR are you simply looking at 1 number and placing all of the value that class has to offer on that one number?
    You can have balance and yet retain Uniqueness. U can have a soul do the same amount of dps over a zone wide as another class via bleeds and DOTs vs burst damage that comes and goes or simple steady consistent damage. You can have a dps class that is AE based rather than ST based. OMG that sounds like this game, they just need to get around to crunching the numbers so that there is a balance there. The same can be applied to just about anything. Dps to be balanced with the risk inherent in how it is delivered (melee vs. ranged). Dps reduced if HPS is high etc. Conceptually its not hard, execution can be rough. The whole "imbalance is necessary in order to keep uniqueness" is simply a cop out.
    Last edited by Galibier; 04-06-2011 at 10:24 PM.

  4. #4
    Prophet of Telara NatashaK's Avatar
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    It's not whether you win or lose. It's how much you can crit a pawn for.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Panduss's Avatar
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    Shouldn't you rather be trying to stunlock and faceroll the queen instead of a pawn?

    I can totally imagine that game of chess...
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  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrargore View Post
    Lets apply this to Classes.

    In a symetric class design all classes would have the same options available to them.
    - (opinion) players would tend to reject symetrical class design. Every class feels the same since they all have the same options available to them.

    In an asymetric class design classes have varried and different options. This means cerain classes have advantages (and disadvantages) to them.
    - (opinion) players are easy to cry foul and "this is not balanced" because Class X has an ability that my class does not.
    - The challenge is making sure that the advantages and disadvantages of each class bear a similar weight. I say similar because there is not just Class balance, but interclass balance as well.

    Compare Checkers to Chess. Same board completly different games.
    Checkers all the pieces are the same. Symetrical.
    Chess each player has the same pieces (symetrical), but the pieces are different.(asymetrical)
    -The queen is the most powerful piece. However for all of its power its the king that is the most important piece.

    So when you ask should all things be equal and balanced....are you sure thats what you really want? OR are you simply looking at 1 number and placing all of the value that class has to offer on that one number?
    and now combine this to mmo.

    you have the option to play either pawn or a queen. which will you choose?

    the game will end up with everyone playing a queen.

    the thing is that classes can retain different abilities as long as when you add them to the whole picture you dont end with what you call a queen (i.e. a single piece being stronger than all the others)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post
    and now combine this to mmo.

    you have the option to play either pawn or a queen. which will you choose?

    the game will end up with everyone playing a queen.

    the thing is that classes can retain different abilities as long as when you add them to the whole picture you dont end with what you call a queen (i.e. a single piece being stronger than all the others)
    While I agree with what you said and that does happen regularly in mmo's (fotm rerollers are a result of that), balance in general is subjective. Also expectations are often contradictory. People want to be capable of defeating someone in 1v1 pvp while not having the same abilities. Realistically, that leads to a situation where some classes/souls/etc. have advantages over some classes and disadvantages against others. Blizzard, as an easy example, started touting that they were balancing for group combat and not single combat, and I've often seen players here chant that mantra here when defending something that other people feel are overpowered. While the former situation (everyone choosing to play a queen) is exemplified in recent cases with Sabs, Champs, and the current case of Pyros, the former garners complaints as well. Ultimately the developers can't please everyone, as no matter what they do a subset of players will be against changes or lack of changes to something.

  8. #8
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niil View Post
    While I agree with what you said and that does happen regularly in mmo's (fotm rerollers are a result of that), balance in general is subjective. Also expectations are often contradictory. People want to be capable of defeating someone in 1v1 pvp while not having the same abilities. Realistically, that leads to a situation where some classes/souls/etc. have advantages over some classes and disadvantages against others. Blizzard, as an easy example, started touting that they were balancing for group combat and not single combat, and I've often seen players here chant that mantra here when defending something that other people feel are overpowered. While the former situation (everyone choosing to play a queen) is exemplified in recent cases with Sabs, Champs, and the current case of Pyros, the former garners complaints as well. Ultimately the developers can't please everyone, as no matter what they do a subset of players will be against changes or lack of changes to something.
    i dint say anywhere in my post that all classes should beat all other classes.

    what i said was they should offer equal things to a group.

    say 1 class has high cc, another has high dps, another has ...

    the way that souls work currently that is diffcult to do because you can min-max between them. but in general comparison there should be no role that offers more to a group than another.

    to use your example of chamions. they were op because they had equal cc as a pure cc class and equal or even greater dps than a pure dps class.
    now pyros are feeling the heat because they have the survivability of a pvp tank with the dps ouput of a pure dps class
    both those were 'queen' classes because they simultaneously fill 2 roles.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post
    i dint say anywhere in my post that all classes should beat all other classes.

    what i said was they should offer equal things to a group.

    say 1 class has high cc, another has high dps, another has ...

    the way that souls work currently that is diffcult to do because you can min-max between them. but in general comparison there should be no role that offers more to a group than another.

    to use your example of chamions. they were op because they had equal cc as a pure cc class and equal or even greater dps than a pure dps class.
    now pyros are feeling the heat because they have the survivability of a pvp tank with the dps ouput of a pure dps class
    both those were 'queen' classes because they simultaneously fill 2 roles.
    I didn't claim you did state that. My intent with that post was to add to the overall conversation while agreeing with what you were saying. To put it simply, balance is subjective and the whole "queen" class/soul is only part of the overall debate (though it is the part that I think most reasonable people would agree on).

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    The point is in chess the pieces are glaringly unequal and yet they all have value and serve their purpose.

    Take Risk as another example. The board is asymetrical. The number of armies that you collect on any given turn is asymetrical. The number or armies you get for completly holding a territory is asymetrical. The attacker gets an extra die roll when attacking, but the defender wins ties...combat is asymetrical. Each subsequent card turn in results in gaining more armies and is asymetrical.

    And yet people still play and enjoy the game despite the fact that there is no apparent balance or symetry to the game.

    Its not about individual pieces. Its about how they work together in a group.
    (opinion) This is what people always seem to forget. To be lame... There is no I in team.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrargore View Post
    The point is in chess the pieces are glaringly unequal and yet they all have value and serve their purpose.
    The issue with this is, chess, because of the rules, requires that you only have 1 queen while you have 8 pawns. The only reason those 8 pawns aren't 8 queens is because the rules say they must be pawns. Remove those rules, and I doubt you'll see people still placing pawns in those 8 spots.

    In MMO terms, if class A is glaringly weak but can serve at least some purposes decently, while class B is just good at everything, players won't say "Hey let's bring a bunch of A and if we work together we can make it work." Instead it'll be "Hey let's stack B and faceroll this lolol."

    In MMO's, it's obviously fine for people to perform different roles, and that those roles must work together to accomplish something. What's not fine is if different specs/classes performing the same role have massive gaps in efficiency between them, because soon the weaker of the specs/classes will become the red headed stepchild of the MMO. This isn't even something new, because a lot of people seem to think this is a WoW attitude, but it's been around long before that. Remember rangers in EQ? They were the laughing stock of the game for so long, and as a result many groups were unwilling to invite them even if the ranger would have been a perfect fit for what they needed (snare usually).

    Basically, developers have to retain some balance between classes/specs performing the same role, or soon a general attitude will prevail that said spec/class is useless (even if it's only slightly weaker) and the class/spec will be seen in a negative light, leading to frustration for anyone actually playing it.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched Panduss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrargore View Post
    Its not about individual pieces. Its about how they work together in a group.
    There is no I in team.
    But there's an M and an E!
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  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrargore View Post
    The point is in chess the pieces are glaringly unequal and yet they all have value and serve their purpose.

    Take Risk as another example. The board is asymetrical. The number of armies that you collect on any given turn is asymetrical. The number or armies you get for completly holding a territory is asymetrical. The attacker gets an extra die roll when attacking, but the defender wins ties...combat is asymetrical. Each subsequent card turn in results in gaining more armies and is asymetrical.

    And yet people still play and enjoy the game despite the fact that there is no apparent balance or symetry to the game.

    Its not about individual pieces. Its about how they work together in a group.
    (opinion) This is what people always seem to forget. To be lame... There is no I in team.
    the thing is that in all of those board games, 1 player controls both the lesser and the greater pieves. thus his value is equal to the value of his opponent.
    your metaphors fit exactly NOT what you imply (i.e. roles) but abilities.

    thus each soul should have lesser abilities, (pawns) and powerful abilities (queens). In order to be equal to another player they dont need to have the equal amount of pawns and queens, but they need to have the equal amount of points. As you pointed out, all pieces in chess have their point, and according to how important that is they each have a different value, likewise, the sum of one character's abilities MUST equal the sum of his opponent abilites. They dont need to have identical amount of pawns and queens, but the total should be the same.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrargore View Post
    Lets apply this to Classes.

    In a symetric class design all classes would have the same options available to them.
    - (opinion) players would tend to reject symetrical class design. Every class feels the same since they all have the same options available to them.

    In an asymetric class design classes have varried and different options. This means cerain classes have advantages (and disadvantages) to them.
    - (opinion) players are easy to cry foul and "this is not balanced" because Class X has an ability that my class does not.
    - The challenge is making sure that the advantages and disadvantages of each class bear a similar weight. I say similar because there is not just Class balance, but interclass balance as well.

    Compare Checkers to Chess. Same board completly different games.
    Checkers all the pieces are the same. Symetrical.
    Chess each player has the same pieces (symetrical), but the pieces are different.(asymetrical)
    -The queen is the most powerful piece. However for all of its power its the king that is the most important piece.

    So when you ask should all things be equal and balanced....are you sure thats what you really want? OR are you simply looking at 1 number and placing all of the value that class has to offer on that one number?

    All I have ever wanted in a game was "symmetrical" warfare. I do not care about uniqueness. Being unique is being the better player, not being one of 10,000 rogues. That is why I would like callings to be as interchangeable as roles. This allows for your chess style symmetry and yet some semblance of asymmetry. If there is too much inter-class imbalance, just change classes like you change roles now.

  15. #15
    Telaran Drexlorn's Avatar
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    Why not suppress callings and allow every player to choose among/combine within all the existing souls ? How would this be negative if everyone can do everything ? That's about what we can do now but being cut from souls of 3 callings.

    What i mean is if people have access to all souls all the time (put more roles!), there would be no need to adjust/tweak balance. Problem solved !
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