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Thread: Please poke holes in this mana drain fix!

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    Rift Disciple Brickz's Avatar
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    Default Please poke holes in this mana drain fix!

    Just discussing a possible mana drain fix with some friends and would like you to help me find issues with it(if any). If we can't, maybe they'll take it into consideration.

    Personally I feel Cost Increasing abilities are better than mana drains and should be substituted for them. The problem with drains is that they leave the character unable to act, and thats not fun for anyone. Cost increasers...

    1. Allow the caster to still take some action
    2. Force careful consideration of now scarce resources
    3. Boost the effectiveness of Cost Reduction skills making more meaningful character choices
    4. While crippled, a Cleric can still make a big play, and not be a targeting dummy

    The mechanic also exits to penalize people for taking action via damage. Is it possible to apply perhaps a stacking DoT per cast that drains mana, deals damage, reduces healing taken/done? Some type of detrimental but removable effect?
    Opinions?
    I fight for the Users

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    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brickz View Post
    Just discussing a possible mana drain fix with some friends and would like you to help me find issues with it(if any). If we can't, maybe they'll take it into consideration.

    Personally I feel Cost Increasing abilities are better than mana drains and should be substituted for them. The problem with drains is that they leave the character unable to act, and thats not fun for anyone. Cost increasers...

    1. Allow the caster to still take some action
    2. Force careful consideration of now scarce resources
    3. Boost the effectiveness of Cost Reduction skills making more meaningful character choices
    4. While crippled, a Cleric can still make a big play, and not be a targeting dummy

    The mechanic also exits to penalize people for taking action via damage. Is it possible to apply perhaps a stacking DoT per cast that drains mana, deals damage, reduces healing taken/done? Some type of detrimental but removable effect?
    Opinions?
    Honestly, I think any mana draining effect should also drain the same amount of mana + cost of spell to the user. Any non mana users should have health drained instead if they mana drain, but thats my opinion. Otherwise remove, because its not a very strategic ability to use. If these two things were into effect you would have to use them timingly and in a strategy. Not just going out and clicking the button " 111111111231111111111"

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    Plane Touched
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    I'd like to see some type of power-draining caster ability to counter how silly mana-drain is. I wish there was a suicide button you could press after your mana gets drained, because that's all you're good for at that point.

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    Prophet of Telara Gamma Ray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerbearr View Post
    I'd like to see some type of power-draining caster ability to counter how silly mana-drain is. I wish there was a suicide button you could press after your mana gets drained, because that's all you're good for at that point.
    It's far more effective to suck a mana bar dry and then ignore the poor bastard, only poking him enough to ensure that he can't drink, than it is to actually kill him.

    I laughed a little, and then I felt bad.
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    Shadowlander
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    No different than being turned into a squirrel permanently...... at least you can try to run away....

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    Rift Disciple Brickz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhon View Post
    No different than being turned into a squirrel permanently...... at least you can try to run away....

    Exactly, so can we all agree that a cost increase is by far a superior method of caster control without completely crippling the caster and making him hope for a quick death?
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    General of Telara Tugrath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerbearr View Post
    I'd like to see some type of power-draining caster ability to counter how silly mana-drain is. I wish there was a suicide button you could press after your mana gets drained, because that's all you're good for at that point.
    Buy some fauxsters!
    Don't mind me, I'm just being an idiot.

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    Rift Disciple Brickz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugrath View Post
    Buy some fauxsters!
    I agree with this partially. I dont find it that easy to flee behind an object as cleric. Actually wait a sec, I know you can use PVP objects in that absorb, can you also drink in it? That would at least be some kind of temporary solution. lol
    I fight for the Users

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    aux
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Loroes View Post
    Honestly, I think any mana draining effect should also drain the same amount of mana + cost of spell to the user. Any non mana users should have health drained instead if they mana drain, but thats my opinion. Otherwise remove, because its not a very strategic ability to use. If these two things were into effect you would have to use them timingly and in a strategy. Not just going out and clicking the button " 111111111231111111111"
    Honestly, I think any damage effect should also damage the user. Also, all heals should also heal the target's target.

    But that's my opinion.

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    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Loroes View Post
    Honestly, I think any mana draining effect should also drain the same amount of mana + cost of spell to the user. Any non mana users should have health drained instead if they mana drain, but thats my opinion. Otherwise remove, because its not a very strategic ability to use. If these two things were into effect you would have to use them timingly and in a strategy. Not just going out and clicking the button " 111111111231111111111"
    No no. This is the only thing that allows any mana user any kind of longevity in PvE. Secondly, being able to drain energy users "energy/mana" with mana drain is far and away the best ability that wrench mana gives, and often enough is the difference between life and death for mana users against rogues and warriors.

    Moreover, wrench mana cannot be "spammed".. it's a channeled spell, and since 1.1, it has a cooldown.

    It's been nerfed enough.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple -HellsWrath-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quintain View Post
    No no. This is the only thing that allows any mana user any kind of longevity in PvE. Secondly, being able to drain energy users "energy/mana" with mana drain is far and away the best ability that wrench mana gives, and often enough is the difference between life and death for mana users against rogues and warriors.

    Moreover, wrench mana cannot be "spammed".. it's a channeled spell, and since 1.1, it has a cooldown.

    It's been nerfed enough.
    That's all well and good against rogues and warriors who will automatically regen energy back to full in a few seconds after you are done. Basically, it acts as temporary crowd control against them. However, against most cleric builds, you just permanently CC'd them into uselessness, seeing how it is near impossible to grab a drink and pot cooldowns are that bad
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    Prophet of Telara Gamma Ray's Avatar
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    After one round of mana drain nerfs, I'm hesitant to suggest further alterations.

    Rather, part of the problem is looking more like is a partial design failure of most Cleric Souls and Wisdom's influence on mana regeneration.

    Looking first to the three melee Cleric souls, the Shaman has a talent that rewards 4% mana back when dealing a critical hit, and being an intensely crit-based soul this generally provides appreciable longevity that will allow for somewhat sustainable performance. It is hardly infinite though, as a Shaman can still run dry by casting heals, shields, and ranged spells, and the mana use generally exceeds the mana returned.

    That is well and good, because the Shaman also has 1 minute cooldown off the GCD that provides them with 10% mana back per successful melee attack for 10 seconds. A single one of these cooldowns is generally sufficient, but there are actuall three - one for each melee Cleric soul. Each one provides the same buff, but they do not share cooldowns. The Justicar also has a mana-back on block talent, which is important for not going OOM while tanking.

    Turning our sights to the casting Cleric souls, the tool are painfully deficient on account of low return values coupled with relatively long cooldowns and no passively triggerable mana-back talents a la Shaman and Justicar.

    Then there is the consideration of Wisdom. Mages have a 50% contribution to their Spell Power from Wisdom and from Intelligence, while Clerics receive 75% of their SP from Wisdom and 25% from Intelligence. With larger mana pools and less Wisdom to provide Intelligence, the design appears to be that Mages have a reasonable set of tools to replenish their pools. Casting Clerics, favoring Wisdom, would have higher innate mana regeneration and thereby have weaker and less relied on tools. The problem being that the mana regeneration provided by Wisdom is abysmal. We're talking in the order of 8 to 13 mana per second for a level 50 cleric.

    While I am by no means promoting that a Cleric's mana pool should be infinitely replenishable, these are things that need consideration for adjustment as some casting Clerics are reporting struggling with mana consumption or having to build specifically around it on long PVE fights. In PVP, mana drains will effectively crush a Cleric so that they're hardly more than a pincushion and are better left alive and OOM than dead and replenished.

    At this point, rather than strike out against Mana Drains again, it may be better to tweak the other half of the problem: the tools provided and the paltry regeneration of Wisdom.
    Last edited by Gamma Ray; 04-05-2011 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Typo.
    "You with your fancy cooldowns and "runic" power! You know where my power comes from!? THE BACK OF MY HAND, #&!$%!"

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    Rift Disciple -HellsWrath-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gamma Ray View Post
    Casting Clerics, favoring Wisdom, would have higher innate mana regeneration and thereby have weaker and less relied on tools. The problem being that the mana regeneration provided by Wisdom is abysmal. We're talking in the order of 8 to 13 mana per second for a level 50 cleric.

    While I am by no means promoting that a Cleric's mana pool should be infinitely replenishable, these are things that need consideration for adjustment as some casting Clerics are reporting struggling with mana consumption or having to build specifically around it on long PVE fights. In PVP, mana drains will effectively crush a Cleric so that they're hardly more than a pincushion and are better left alive and OOM than dead and replenished.

    At this point, rather than strike out against Mana Drains again, it may be better to tweak the other half of the problem: the tools provided and the paltry regeneration of Wisdom.
    This really hits the heart of current cleric issues on mana. Considering that we get mana and crit only from intelligence, yet have to focus on wisdom in order to gain spellpower, we start running into serious gearing issues at end game. Fixing this would likely fix our issues with mana drain while still leaving it as a viable spell, in addition to solving other cleric issues.
    Guild Leader of Alpha Legion, Evil Prankster, and Killer of Critters

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