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Thread: The standard of debate is very poor

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default The standard of debate is very poor

    I've read some of the threads here about class comparison, and the standard of debate is appallingly bad. Some people are blatantly using dishonest tactics worthy of the worst of lawyers and politicians, whilst others are frankly stupid.

    For example, discussions about PvE DPS are derailed by people talking about PvP (where a lot more is important besides just DPS), or even about such absurd things as tank survivability. What the hell does the performance of a tank soul have to do with PvE DPS? Other threads state that "person X was asking for class Y for their party - therefor class Y is OP, and my class Z, needs a buff". Which means nothing of the sort. Perhaps person X is just an idiot. Or perhaps he already has a party containing, for example, four clerics, and he doesn't want a 5th.

    It's a pity - my poor little rogue is approaching endgame, and I really want to know what sort of future he will have. But amongst all the propaganda, it's impossible to discern the truth.

    Here's what I'd like to see:

    Firstly, the community should come up with some sort of benchmark DPS for what they think is needed at each gear level. What is the minimum level that the community thinks a pure DPS soul should be able to achieve at various milestones:

    e.g.
    As a starter 50 in gear from AP and CC? i.e. ready to start on Experts.
    As a character in gear from Tier 1 experts and ready to start Tier 2?
    As a character in gear from Tier 2 experts, and ready to start raiding

    What numbers would you expect? Would 500, 600 and 700 DPS be too low? Too high? Once we have established such benchmarks, then that would serve two purposes. Firstly it would allow people to have some idea as to where they themselves stood. And secondly, we'd be able to debate particular souls without endless comparisons to other roles which inevitably descend into conflict.

    For example, if we determine that the minimum DPS for a 50 starting on experts is 500, and no-one can show how this can be achieved by, for example, any marksman based build in starter gear, then that would give us a good case for buffing marksmen without throwing around accusations.

    IMO, for every soul, there should be a build based upon it that can be used in any of the five man instances and experts. That's what we should aim for, and we shouldn't have to throw around accusations at each-other to achieve it.

    Secondly, we come to where DPS really counts - fully buffed raids. Whenever I look around these forums I see parses for how people perform against target dummies. But who really cares? Target dummies don't fight back, and don't drop loot. The guilds that really care about DPS, and accept or reject people accordingly, are cutting edge raiding guilds. So that's what really matters. How do classes perform when fully buffed and played skill-fully in raids. I'd like to see far more of those parses, rather than parses from people hitting pillows.
    Last edited by cathartic; 04-04-2011 at 10:31 AM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    Or you could just say "Eff it," play the class / souls you want, and enjoy yourself, whether you're top DPS dog or not.
    Blog: Have Bow, Will PewPew

    Christov, Ranger/Marksman/?, Firesand
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  3. #3
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    What would really end the debate as far as PvE is concerned is something like World of Logs / WoW Web Stats / etc.

    That's a hell of a lot of work though, and something I'm definitely not willing to undertake.
    Pessimistick - <Esti Efiu> - Mage - Guardian - Sunrest
    Ippon - <Esti Efiu> - Rogue - Guardian - Sunrest
    Uchimata - <Esti Efiu> - Cleric - Guardian - Sunrest
    Noppi - <Esti Efiu> - Warrior - Guardian - Sunrest
    Ippon - <Spike Flail> - Ner'zhul

  4. #4
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olaffsson View Post
    Or you could just say "Eff it," play the class / souls you want, and enjoy yourself, whether you're top DPS dog or not.
    That's exactly what I do when I solo. However, when I join others for a group, I tend to put the success of the group above my own selfish desires, and will try to contribute as much as I possibly can to the group's success, whether that is in DPS or by other means.

    I also have no means whatsoever to force other people to want me in their groups. Ideally all souls would be equal, and people would be judged entirely as individuals rather than according to their favoured sole. I get the impression that we aren't quite there yet!
    Last edited by cathartic; 04-04-2011 at 11:32 AM.

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Mr Malingers's Avatar
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    I think you're expecting a lot out the users of an internet forum.
    WoW only managed to do this with an offsite website (Elitistjerks)
    Who banned people for even minor infractions on their posting code. Like giving an opinion and not data.

    Without a system to push away trouble makers it will be difficult to convince the kind of people that are willing to put the amount of time into information building that it's worth putting up with idiots and trolls.

    In short I think you're going to have to take what you can get and do the rest on your own.
    Maybe he just wanted to steal our wire cutters. You ever think of that?

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by cathartic View Post
    That's exactly what I do when I solo. However, when I join others for a group, I tend to put the success of the group above my own selfish desires, and will try to contribute as much as I possibly can to the group's success, whether that is in DPS or by other means.

    I also have no means whatsoever to force other people to want me in their groups. Ideally all souls would be equal, and people would be judged entirely as individuals rather than according to their favoured sole. I get the impression that we aren't quite there yet!
    I don't think it's selfish to play a class / soul combo that suits your playstyle and personality in a group. I agree that people should be trying to do the best they can to help the group "win," but if you're not enjoying yourself, then what's the point?

    If anything, playing to your style is probably of more benefit to the group than is playing a style you're unfamiliar with/ uncomfortable with / simply don't like. Chances are you'll have remembered to upgrade your abilities, picked gear to suit your style, have rotations / macros that work instead of having your abilities scattered all over the place...
    Blog: Have Bow, Will PewPew

    Christov, Ranger/Marksman/?, Firesand
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olaffsson View Post
    I don't think it's selfish to play a class / soul combo that suits your playstyle and personality in a group. I agree that people should be trying to do the best they can to help the group "win," but if you're not enjoying yourself, then what's the point?

    If anything, playing to your style is probably of more benefit to the group than is playing a style you're unfamiliar with/ uncomfortable with / simply don't like. Chances are you'll have remembered to upgrade your abilities, picked gear to suit your style, have rotations / macros that work instead of having your abilities scattered all over the place...
    Playing a spec that you don't "like" somehow turns you from a competent player to a drooling re-re? I think not.
    Pessimistick - <Esti Efiu> - Mage - Guardian - Sunrest
    Ippon - <Esti Efiu> - Rogue - Guardian - Sunrest
    Uchimata - <Esti Efiu> - Cleric - Guardian - Sunrest
    Noppi - <Esti Efiu> - Warrior - Guardian - Sunrest
    Ippon - <Spike Flail> - Ner'zhul

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by PessimiStick View Post
    Playing a spec that you don't "like" somehow turns you from a competent player to a drooling re-re? I think not.
    Drooling re-re? No. Less effective? I think yes, for the reasons I listed above. That said, if the group has specific needs, then it has specific needs. And if you're not capable of meeting those needs (for whatever reason), then you should find a group where you fit in better.

    Of course, if you're the type of player who has 8-10 hours, 7 days a week, to play the game, then you can probably master the whole game. I know I don't have that kind of time, myself.
    Blog: Have Bow, Will PewPew

    Christov, Ranger/Marksman/?, Firesand
    Member of Blackwolf

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olaffsson View Post
    Drooling re-re? No. Less effective? I think yes, for the reasons I listed above. That said, if the group has specific needs, then it has specific needs. And if you're not capable of meeting those needs (for whatever reason), then you should find a group where you fit in better.

    Of course, if you're the type of player who has 8-10 hours, 7 days a week, to play the game, then you can probably master the whole game. I know I don't have that kind of time, myself.
    Anyone that doesn't have skills trained, doesn't have abilities bound, and does the other types of things you list as "stuff they might do when playing another spec", is a terrible player. As such, their output will be similarly terrible with their "real" spec.

    A competent player can play any spec, regardless of how much they like or dislike it. (Note that most players are not actually competent)
    Pessimistick - <Esti Efiu> - Mage - Guardian - Sunrest
    Ippon - <Esti Efiu> - Rogue - Guardian - Sunrest
    Uchimata - <Esti Efiu> - Cleric - Guardian - Sunrest
    Noppi - <Esti Efiu> - Warrior - Guardian - Sunrest
    Ippon - <Spike Flail> - Ner'zhul

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by PessimiStick View Post
    Anyone that doesn't have skills trained, doesn't have abilities bound, and does the other types of things you list as "stuff they might do when playing another spec", is a terrible player. As such, their output will be similarly terrible with their "real" spec.

    A competent player can play any spec, regardless of how much they like or dislike it. (Note that most players are not actually competent)
    /shrug

    I'm not trying to get into an argument here. My original point, perhaps poorly stated, is that people should enjoy what they're doing. If they choose to take on different roles to help their group, then that's fine, especially if they've practiced at those roles and are good at them. If they're only good at one role, then (personally speaking) I'd rather they stuck with that, then try something they don't really have any interest in doing. Chances are, you'll be able to fill in the needed roles with another person, somehow.
    Blog: Have Bow, Will PewPew

    Christov, Ranger/Marksman/?, Firesand
    Member of Blackwolf

  11. #11
    Plane Walker Malvolio's Avatar
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    Your referring to Theory-crafting. Crunching numbers and finding the best possible combination of souls and talents to do the best you are capable of doing. Elitist Jerks do have a rift theory-crafting forum but it is for benefactors only. You can find some insight as long as you dont take the builds literally at Rift Zam - Soul Builder - Soul Builds by Calling. If you sort by popularity some of the builds are acceptable.

    The training dummy isn't an example of DPS in a group/raid but it is a representation of your greatest potential. You set up and practice soul builds, get rotations going, and experiment all without inconveniencing a group when your testing. You should test your ability rotations sometimes you'll find fewer skills increase your dps and other times the opposite. Obviously in a dungeon your moving more often and your dps wont be the same but at least you will know the highest DPS rotation to use when you have the ability to burst.

    Running AP, and CC for Tier dungeons is mainly to get your respective hit, focus, and toughness up.

    Each tier has a player instituted recommended hit, focus, and toughness modifier. Hit for landing War/Rog abilities, focus for landing spells, and toughness for survivng increased damage from hardmodes. Perhaps someone here can respond with the numbers for each tier I do not recall them.

    In reality as a pure DPS role there is a minimum level of DPS you should be achieving otherwise you are hurting the group not helping. Obviously support/dps roles change things greatly so instead of measuring by numbers merely measure by your groups ability to succeed in said dungeons. If you cant make DPS checks (cocoons, add phases, enrage timers, etc..) then you need to regroup and rethink.

    -Mal
    "I aim to misbehave"

  12. #12
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malvolio View Post
    Your referring to Theory-crafting. Crunching numbers and finding the best possible combination of souls and talents to do the best you are capable of doing. Elitist Jerks do have a rift theory-crafting forum but it is for benefactors only. You can find some insight as long as you dont take the builds literally at Rift Zam - Soul Builder - Soul Builds by Calling. If you sort by popularity some of the builds are acceptable.
    I would like to see more proper theory-crafting. I'll check out EJ, since they're normally pretty good for Warcraft.

    The training dummy isn't an example of DPS in a group/raid but it is a representation of your greatest potential. You set up and practice soul builds, get rotations going, and experiment all without inconveniencing a group when your testing. You should test your ability rotations sometimes you'll find fewer skills increase your dps and other times the opposite.
    In previous games, I've had the attitude that dps figures from training dummies are irrelevant - since skills scale differently with raid buffs applied, and what may look best in one environment may be second rate in another. I've seen some posts saying that mages scale better with raid buffs. Is that true? I've got no idea. But comparing figures from training dummies won't tell me one way or the other.

    For now we may have to accept these dummy results for lack of anything better. But they are very much a poor man's choice. We should discard them immediately as soon as better data becomes available - either from calculations, or from getting a sufficiently large sample of actual figures from raids.

    Running AP, and CC for Tier dungeons is mainly to get your respective hit, focus, and toughness up.
    Working on it. I ran CC for the first time earlier this evening.

    In reality as a pure DPS role there is a minimum level of DPS you should be achieving otherwise you are hurting the group not helping.
    But what is that minimum? I've simply got no idea what it is for each tier of play - and from what I've read, it appears many other posters don't know either.

    Obviously support/dps roles change things greatly so instead of measuring by numbers merely measure by your groups ability to succeed in said dungeons. If you cant make DPS checks (cocoons, add phases, enrage timers, etc..) then you need to regroup and rethink.
    Well so far I haven't failed a single instance run - and I've run all the lower level instances (except the guardian ones) at least 3 times. Even poor groups can get through with just a couple of decent players to carry them. However, I've heard experts are considerably harder, and I'd like to be ready for them when I meet them.

    Btw - I'm curious - how would people compare the difficulty of experts with, for example, running TBC heroics in blue gear?

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