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Thread: Trion, why do Rogues think they are entitled to do the most dps?

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Trion, why do Rogues think they are entitled to do the most dps?

    Warriors can't heal, Mages can't tank, but Rogues can do all three and say only they deserve buffs? It's not like they can switch specs in PvP, oh wait they CAN. And if changing specs isn't a big deal why aren't Rogues clamoring for Cleric buffs?

    Rogues complain that they have to build combo points but every class has an energy builder mechanic. However, not every class has no mana bar, 1.0 GCD, instant attacks, stealth, speed buffs, tons of CC (especially at range), etc.

    If Rogues did deal the most damage how would that be fair? How would any other class survive a Rogue stealth opener and then all the ensuing CC if they can't outdps them? What would be the point of playing any of the other three classes If one class can do everything they can do better?

    Trion please don't balance the game around Rogue QQ. And before some troll copies my post and switches it with X Class name, X Class has to give up a lot of versatility to get their damage, and Rogues do not. What do Rogues give up?
    Last edited by Bigbadwolf; 04-04-2011 at 06:19 AM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbadwolf View Post
    Warriors can't heal, Mages can't tank, but Rogues can do all three and say only they deserve buffs? It's not like they can switch specs in PvP, oh wait they CAN. And if changing specs isn't a big deal why aren't Rogues clamoring for Cleric buffs?

    Rogues complain that they have to build combo points but every class has an energy builder mechanic. However, not every class has no mana bar, 1.0 GCD, instant attacks, stealth, speed buffs, tons of CC (especially at range), etc.

    If Rogues did deal the most damage how would that be fair? How would any other class survive a Rogue stealth opener and then all the ensuing CC if they can't outdps them? What would be the point of playing any of the other three classes If one class can do everything they can do better?

    Trion please don't balance the game around Rogue QQ. And before some troll copies my post and switches it with X Class name, X Class has to give up a lot of versatility to get their damage, and Rogues do not. What do Rogues give up?
    I love the number of these posts lately.... I wholeheartedly endorse cleric buffs in addition to rogue buffs. Rogues are clamoring and complaining because the difference in melee dps between rogues/clerics and warriors is large. Further, ranged dps from a rogue is a joke compared to the ranged dps output that a mage puts out.

    Mana bars are irrelevant for 95% of casters in this game. The only casters that have mana issues are HEALING clerics. All mages have EASY options for mana replenishment via warlock, archon or necromancer. Melee dps clerics have 0 mana issues as well through the myriad of tools found in shamans/druids/justicars.

    Rogue energy, further, is not unlimited. All rogues, after initial burst if you can call it that, reach a point in which their energy is drained. Their 1.0 GCD changes to 1.5s-2s per ability (20energy/s; 30+energy per ability). This is a 50%-100% net decrease in ability usage. Mages/clerics are still tossing out at 1.5s (no resource constraints other than single GCD spent periodically to replenish). Warriors suffer the same problem but go from 1.5s to ~2-2.5s (net 33%-66% decrease in ability usage).

    As far as stating they have instant attacks.... that's a joke right? EVERY calling has souls that make heavy use of instant attacks. If you want instant attacks as a mage (and i can only assume you play one based on your arguments) then play a stormcaller that spams instant attacks for 1.5k+ damage on crit in full t2 every 1.5s. That's 3x the damage of an assassin's backstab crit.

    Yes they have stealth. This is actually a drawback in some ways for Assassin PvE dps as the soul is so predicated on stealth buffs but no way to restealth in mid-combat on a short cd. They lose out on major dps increases on prolonged fights as a result but have strong burst dps in pvp which is what makes people complain about them. Otherwise there is nothing to say other than stealth is generally a nice benefit.

    Speed buffs..... like who? Riftstalker or BD? Bards movespeed buff (on a support soul no less)? The 3 souls that are not viable for being primary PvE dps souls and provide laughable damage output? Marksman, who does significantly less damage than any mage soul out there? Or do tailwind from stormcaller and pyromancer teleports not count for this as well? Sprint from warriors or warrior charges? I'm confused as to which calling DOESN'T have souls that provide move-speed buffs.

    Don't even get me started on ranged cc.... there are multiple mage souls with reliable ranged CC. Pyromancer has 1 root. Stormcaller has 2-3 root abilities with multiple 75% move speed snares. Dominator for an actual CC not just root that resists breaking on damage (when specced) and is able to be kept up permanently? The only in-combat ranged cc that rogues have is blinding powder from assassin and it's on a 60s cd for 10s duration that breaks on any damage. 1 move speed slow from ranger, 1 30s cd aoe root on ranger(that breaks on it's own damage), 1 cd root from mm. None of the ranged dps specs for rogues have a true cc.....

    Seems like you've read into hype but not looked at anything the rogues do.

  3. #3
    Rift Master Carthoris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbadwolf View Post
    Warriors can't heal, Mages can't tank, but Rogues can do all three and say only they deserve buffs? It's not like they can switch specs in PvP, oh wait they CAN. And if changing specs isn't a big deal why aren't Rogues clamoring for Cleric buffs?

    Rogues complain that they have to build combo points but every class has an energy builder mechanic. However, not every class has no mana bar, 1.0 GCD, instant attacks, stealth, speed buffs, tons of CC (especially at range), etc.

    If Rogues did deal the most damage how would that be fair? How would any other class survive a Rogue stealth opener and then all the ensuing CC if they can't outdps them? What would be the point of playing any of the other three classes If one class can do everything they can do better?

    Trion please don't balance the game around Rogue QQ. And before some troll copies my post and switches it with X Class name, X Class has to give up a lot of versatility to get their damage, and Rogues do not. What do Rogues give up?
    First of all, I haven't seen *any* threads where rogues ask to do the most DPS; we're asking to be competitive (within 5% or so, for example).

    Secondly, Rift looked to be a fantastic game for one reason above all: soul flexibility. That means that every tank, regardless of calling, should be roughly equal in a raid setting. Every ranged DPS should be rougly equal*. Every melee DPS should be roughly equal. Every healer should be roughly equal. Every support should be roughly equal.

    When bards do 150 DPS and archons/chloros do 600, that's a problem.

    When a fully T2/3 geared rogue ranged DPS puts his balls to the wall and the stars align and he pulls 850 DPS, and a mage in blues pulls 1200, that's a problem.

    When a melee rogue and a melee warrior with similar gear and skill levels look at their parse and the difference in DPS is greater than 5%, that's a problem.

    You sound like one of those idiots who want an inherent advantage over others in ___ situations merely because you picked a certain class at creation. That's a horribly backward way to approach something new and promising.

    When a rogue goes into an instance and pulls literally twice the AoE DPS of every other class, that's a problem.

    When guilds prioritize recruiting clerics over chloros because chloros just don't have the toolbox to mainheal raids (or really even T2s), that's a problem.

    THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD AFFECT MY POSITION ON THE METERS IS MY PERSONAL SKILL LEVEL AND ANY GEAR DISPARITY. NOT CLASS CHOICE.

    *Yes, I'm saying Riftblades (or at least 1 warrior soul) should do competitive ranged DPS. You're stuck in the past if you insist otherwise.
    Last edited by Carthoris; 04-04-2011 at 06:41 AM.

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    I have played a Rogue Sin build since beta all the way through to now...
    And for the first time since all of the Rogue posts have been coming out I actually laughed at the mis informed rubbish that came out of that original post from BigBadWolf.... obviously another forum troll that doesn't even understand class mechanics beyond his own (if he even does) which I'm biasing towards a mage maybe from the sounds of his/her post??

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    Rift Chaser Izithel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carthoris View Post
    THE ONLY THING THAT SHOULD AFFECT MY POSITION ON THE METERS IS MY PERSONAL SKILL LEVEL AND ANY GEAR DISPARITY. NOT CLASS CHOICE.
    This is where your wrong, Class choice is important in affecting your position on the meters.

    You see, some classes are more flexible then others, but have to pay this off by not being as strong as ohters.
    Warriors, being the least flexible got the most strenght in what they can, that is mDPS and Tanking. You can say they do rDPS but it's laughable.
    Rogues on the other hand are jack of all trades, they can mDPS, rDPS, tank and support. Obviously they shouldn't be as good in everything as they can do everything.

    Of course I'm not saying they should be worthless, but In all fairness the rogue should not be better then most other callings and their souls.

    Now if rogues where like WoW where they could only Melee, obviously they should out DPS Warriors and the like, but that is not the case.
    Last edited by Izithel; 04-04-2011 at 06:49 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by stavi82 View Post
    I imagine 95% of the people that complained about the difficulty of Rift use cheat codes in their Facebook games.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Izithel View Post
    This is where your wrong, Class choice is important in affecting your position on the meters.

    You see, some classes are more flexible then others, but have to pay this off by not being as strong as ohters.
    Warriors, being the least flexible got the most strenght in what they can, that is mDPS and Tanking. You can say they do rDPS but it's laughable.
    Rogues on the other hand are jack of all trades, they can mDPS, rDPS, tank and support. Obviously they shouldn't be as good in everything as they can do everything.

    Of course I'm not saying they should be worthless, but In all fairness the rogue should not be better then most other callings and their souls.

    Now if rogues where like WoW where they could only Melee, obviously they should out DPS Warriors and the like, but that is not the case.
    Not sure where you are getting with post. Let's just stick to warriors shall we: Warriors can mDPS better than anyone and provide more control at the same time. They can be a melee tank OR a caster tank (so that gives them much flexibility in terms of their tanking line-up. They can be a pet dps class, which is showing pretty even numbers with their other souls, albeit NOT with that of the champ combo.

    Move it to pvp and they blow rogues out of the water on all fronts barring stealth...which as we all know, rogue stealth is bunked anyways.

    I haven't seen a single rogue beg to be #1...we just want to stay close to #1, just like everyone else. We were nerfed b/c of Sab burst (which is the point of the damn soul anyways) with a bugged talent, which should have been fixed and nothing more, and lost a substantial amt of dps, where as our warrior counterparts lost nil and kept their dmg.

    Bards were nerfed to next to useless and ranged dmg is laughable. Sab still outdoes our marks and ranger souls even AFTER the nerf.

    Try harder mate....MUCH MUCH harder.

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    Why is it when people mention warriors they never mention fact that Warriors do have a Support soul. In BM there are alot of group buffs. Oh gee it is not as good as someone elses support so it must not be support. But Bards can heal acording to same people. Even though bard healing is a joke compared to mage healing.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timploee View Post
    Why is it when people mention warriors they never mention fact that Warriors do have a Support soul. In BM there are alot of group buffs. Oh gee it is not as good as someone elses support so it must not be support. But Bards can heal acording to same people. Even though bard healing is a joke compared to mage healing.
    They dont' mention it b/c it would derail their thread. The support of BM is very good and gives to the group....and still does more dps than a bard. But wait, u know someone will try and say bards can heal as well...fair enough, go to mages and that comment gets thrown completely out of the window.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaquanda View Post
    They dont' mention it b/c it would derail their thread. The support of BM is very good and gives to the group....and still does more dps than a bard. But wait, u know someone will try and say bards can heal as well...fair enough, go to mages and that comment gets thrown completely out of the window.
    Yea http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0c...Rsbz.xEzdVzuck

    A good support soul. OH BUT IT IS NOT TOP DSP SO MUST SUCK.

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    General of Telara Tugrath's Avatar
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    They need to do the most dps, kill every encounter with a stun lock from stealth without being hit, get triple gold from loot, and have a 75% dodge and parry rating.
    Don't mind me, I'm just being an idiot.

    What you did there, I see it.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tugrath View Post
    They need to do the most dps, kill every encounter with a stun lock from stealth without being hit, get triple gold from loot, and have a 75% dodge and parry rating.
    Your sig is ironic and appropriate for your post

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    Rift Master Victus Tryggr Wolf's Avatar
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    I guess its another

    "I want Warriors to remain the kings of everything other then healing other players as thats a clerics job. My job is to own you all with my number 1 dps plenty of cc, mobility, anti cc plate and higher hps. Get lost rogues we dont want you your just a cheerleader support class who gets stealth. I dont care if only 1 of ya main souls gets real stealth it means all your souls should suck in dps and praise the ground i walk on."

    thread...
    Last edited by Victus Tryggr Wolf; 04-04-2011 at 07:27 AM.
    "Never violate a woman, nor harm a child. Do not lie, cheat or steal. These things are for lesser men. Protect the weak against the evil strong. And never allow thoughts of gain to lead you into the pursuit of evil"

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    So what Rogue class heals again?

    I'd like to know and if you say bard you're a funny guy.

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    Telaran
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    You're saying what class you pick shouldn't have an impact on your ability to heal, tank or dps, but IT DOES. Warriors can't heal AT all, Mages can't tank or melee DPS, Rogues can do all these things, but you don't want your class choice to effect your capabilies in PvP and PvE, like everybody else. You guys are demanding buffs like your WoW Rogues and Hunters but the rest of the community knows your Trion's equivalent of Druids, and like Druids your dps will be adjusted according to your class abilities.

    Those of you getting benched for other classes and demanding buffs are just bad.
    If you can't get a group with a dps, healing, or tanking soul you're BAD.
    If you need an ability to stealth twice (restealth) to kill One person your're BAD.
    If you're constantly running out of energy increasing your GCD to 1.5 then your Bad.
    If you can't play a bard effectively in PvE or PvP then you're BAD.
    If you're complaining about other classes having better CC or mobility then you, then you're BAD.
    If you outgear them and are losing in dps to any spec that's not a melee Warrior, you're Bad.

    If you're a Rogue and you think you deserve to deal more dps then other classes that had to sacrifice something for there dps and you didn't, then you're a jerk.
    Last edited by Bigbadwolf; 04-04-2011 at 09:43 AM.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara Banthaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbadwolf View Post
    You're saying what class you pick shouldn't have an impact on your ability to heal, tank or dps, but IT DOES. Warriors can't heal AT all, Mages can't tank or melee DPS, Rogues can do all these things, but you don't want your class choice to effect your capabilies in PvP and PvE, like everybody else. You guys are demanding buffs like your WoW Rogues and Hunters but the rest of the community knows your Trion's equivalent of Druids, and like Druids your dps will be adjusted according to your class abilities.

    Those of you getting benched for other classes and demanding buffs are just bad.
    If you can't get a group with a dps, healing, or tanking soul you're BAD.
    If you need an ability to stealth twice (restealth) to kill One person your're BAD.
    If you're constantly running out of energy increasing your GCD to 1.5 then your Bad.
    If you can't play a bard effectively in PvE or PvP then you're BAD.
    If you're complaining about other classes having better CC or mobility then you, then you're BAD.
    If you outgear them and are losing in dps to any spec that's not a melee Warrior, you're Bad.

    If you're a Rogue and you think you deserve to deal more dps then other classes that had to sacrifice something for there dps and you didn't, then you're a jerk.
    If your raid boss takes your ranger/mm as DPS, he's bad.
    If your raid boss would rather take a bard than a chloro he's bad.
    If your raid boss would take your melee rogue over a champ/BM/para, he's bad.
    If you're saying that Warriors don't have an insane amount of CC compared to rogues, (especially champ and RB) then you're delusional.

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