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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gradient View Post
    Just casting about 6 group heals ****s up your manabar so badly you probably have to commit suicide to get your character working again.
    See, this is the difference between a good player and a bad player.

    You see how much mana easy mode group heals cost, and point out how expensive they are.

    I See how much mana easy mode group heals cost, and assume trion didn't want the healing classes to all be about easy mode group healing. They probably made big group heals expensive so that they were still an option (and a great one to have), but not something to be relied on all the time. They probably want you to learn how to play your class.

    I don't even play a cleric and figured this one out.

    Note, calling you a bad player isn't meant as an insult. If you experiment and learn and change, you can easily become a good player.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormz View Post
    you realize doms have to stand still for 6 + seconds to burn your mana lol..and doms have the lowest dps of any class in this game so they sacerfice, what i think is ALOT of abilites have to be alot higher in the tree, me being a dom ye si think mana drain and wrenth should be higher BUTY i also think transmog should be higher and i think champs charge should be alot higher and rogues stealth should be alot higher in the trees..and all the pet classes should be higher in the tree.

    they have too many classes with too OPed abilites at 0 points in the class
    Yes I realize they have to stand there for 6 seconds to drain someone's mana. 6 seconds to completely shut down another player. Wow.

    I don't care if they give Dom's more damage if that's what they complain about, just don't give someone an ability that completely shuts down half the playable Callings in 6 seconds.

    Not all those abilities need to be higher in the trees (although transmogrophy does). There's nothing wrong with a Warriors charge or the ways to make it better (5 sec stun), it's the insanely high damage they do in that 5 seconds that kills a lot of players and the rest are near death when it's over.

    I really don't see the problem with rogue stealth either. Their stealth doesn't shut down another player. If Dom's seriously have no damage (and I don't doubt it because they don't ever damage me) then hopefully when the Devs lower the mana drain they will give them other things in return. I don't want to see any class made useless, so hopefully this is balanced out.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickled_heretic View Post
    this is the crux of your argument

    you want to take your pve spec into a pvp environment and you want to faceroll your way to the top of the healing charts

    let me tell you something precious, it doesn't work that way

    if you can't adapt, you shouldn't be playing in pvp at all
    It's not about learning to adapt, **** here, I'm not even going to try to be logical with you anymore, rofl. That's completely out the picture now, I'll just accept the fact that you're an idiot and call it a day. Why do you only quote the parts that you think are relevant? You should quote an entire post before trying to start an argument against someone's post. Who said I was in a pve spec? I have been pvping in MMOs longer than the majority of the people on these forums and this is the first MMO i've seen where a resource to use skills can be completely depleted forever. I have been in the top pvp guilds across multiple MMOs since UO and have been one of the top support/healer players on whatever server I have played on in pvp. This is the first MMO where I have ever complained about the viability of support/healing classes.
    Last edited by Empathetic; 03-09-2011 at 10:22 AM.
    Killing people with logic since 1997 UO (The first true 3D MMO that wasn't WOW.).

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empathetic View Post
    It's not about learning to adapt, **** here, I'm not even going to try to be logical with you anymore, rofl. That's completely out the picture now, I'll just accept the fact that you're an idiot and call it a day. Why do you only quote the parts that you think are relevant? You should quote an entire post before trying to start an argument against someone's post. Who said I was in a pve spec? I have been pvping in MMOs longer than the majority of the people on these forums and this is the first MMO i've seen where a resource to use skills can be completely depleted forever. I have been in the top pvp guilds across multiple MMOs since UO and have been one of the top support/healer players on whatever server I have played on in pvp. This is the first MMO where I have ever complained about the viability of support/healing classes.
    did you not just say "bawwww i don't want to change my spec, i want trion to accomodate for my lack of flexibility?"

    some experienced MMO player you are

  5. #50
    Rift Disciple Tiberius1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickled_heretic View Post
    looool i can't believe how people want to have their pvp game experience handed to them on a silver platter

    every class in every game ever is used to getting stomped by clerics, and we don't ***** because "it's a team game, we shouldn't worry about 1v1"

    practice what you preach friend, tell your warriors and rogues to lay some damage on their vks, or bring vks of your own and stop whining
    First of all, grow up. what does 'looool' mean? Post something here that makes sense.

    Who's asking to have their PvP experience handed to them? In fact it's just the opposite, people don't want it completely taken away within seconds.

    I don't remember ever getting stomped by Clerics in other games or even this one on my various toons. Are Clerics hard to kill? Yes they are if they have any idea how to play their calling. So is any calling that heals in this game, and there are a lot of them.

    Dom's don't need a 1vs1 to drain someones mana, in fact they are more likely to do it in a skirmish. Not really sure why you're posting about people worrying about 1vs1.

    What are talking about, practice what I preach? What am I preaching? And where am I whining? I think you need to seriously stay on topic and stop and try your best to post constructively.

    People simply don't like getting into a skirmish and within seconds being completely useless. People want to play the game and not run away to the sidelines to sit and drink and come back just to have it happen again. Everyone can talk about "Don't go near the Dom", which is great advice if the Dom's can't move themselves.

    The funny thing is, my main is a rogue and my first experience seeing the mana drain suck away a whole mana bar in seconds was me watching my friends mana bar go bye bye. I actually stopped in disbelief at how fast it drained. If it stays this way (which I find it hard to believe), I feel for those who rely on mana to actually do things in PvP.

  6. #51
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    Anyone that has any sense of logic can see the problem, when there are no healers/clerics left after the first month of the game, when no one is getting healed in WFs, and dying in under 3 seconds; I guess some of these idiots will see it too.
    Killing people with logic since 1997 UO (The first true 3D MMO that wasn't WOW.).

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberius1 View Post
    First of all, grow up. what does 'looool' mean? Post something here that makes sense.

    Who's asking to have their PvP experience handed to them? In fact it's just the opposite, people don't want it completely taken away within seconds.

    I don't remember ever getting stomped by Clerics in other games or even this one on my various toons. Are Clerics hard to kill? Yes they are if they have any idea how to play their calling. So is any calling that heals in this game, and there are a lot of them.

    Dom's don't need a 1vs1 to drain someones mana, in fact they are more likely to do it in a skirmish. Not really sure why you're posting about people worrying about 1vs1.

    What are talking about, practice what I preach? What am I preaching? And where am I whining? I think you need to seriously stay on topic and stop and try your best to post constructively.

    People simply don't like getting into a skirmish and within seconds being completely useless. People want to play the game and not run away to the sidelines to sit and drink and come back just to have it happen again. Everyone can talk about "Don't go near the Dom", which is great advice if the Dom's can't move themselves.

    The funny thing is, my main is a rogue and my first experience seeing the mana drain suck away a whole mana bar in seconds was me watching my friends mana bar go bye bye. I actually stopped in disbelief at how fast it drained. If it stays this way (which I find it hard to believe), I feel for those who rely on mana to actually do things in PvP.
    was your friend a mage? tell him to get 6 points into warlock so he never has to worry about mana again

    25 points into justicar and a shield will also counter vk/dom mana drain, admittedly it is a larger investment but 38 pt vk (which i consider to be the minimum for a vk pvp build like this) is nothing to sneeze at either

    25 points to counter a 38 point build? yes please

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaiusM View Post
    Not taking spellpower into account and taking into account 10% reduced mana costs from my build, this is the math at level 28.

    Tidal Surge 28 Mana
    Ripple 133 mana
    Healing Spray 409 * 1.5 = 613 hp @ 29 mana
    3 stacks of Soothing Stream 115 * 3 = 345 hp @ 23 * 3 = 84 mana

    That is 958 hp over 12 seconds to 6 targets for 274 mana. If you hit 6 people that is a total healing of 5748. Heal/Mana ratio of 1 to 21.

    Again this is the lowest possible number as crits and spellpower wasn't taking into account.
    You've got some basic math issues here.

    Tidal Surge %4 Mana
    Ripple %17 Mana

    Both on 45 sec cool downs.

    Unless you are planning on just blowing your wad and committing suicide this is a bad method for healing 12-20 seconds of a WF. I'd venture to guess that if this is your best method of healing that manadrains are not an issue for you. All that for 80 HP a second (per your l337 math hax *which are hideously wrong as they don't take spell power or spell level or any other aspect of casting into play*)

    If this is not your best method of healing a WF then please explain why you would ever consider posting as an authority?

    Its...like you don't understand that a healing cleric is only good at keeping a single target or two up through pressu....waaaiiit a minute, your not REALLY a cleric are you??

    Alright, right, I get it. You are no longer a viable spokesperson for Clerics as a class. Please stop.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by pickled_heretic View Post
    was your friend a mage? tell him to get 6 points into warlock so he never has to worry about mana again

    25 points into justicar and a shield will also counter vk/dom mana drain, admittedly it is a larger investment but 38 pt vk (which i consider to be the minimum for a vk pvp build like this) is nothing to sneeze at either

    25 points to counter a 38 point build? yes please
    How is this magic 25 point build going to help against dominators? Since you seem to be quite "genius", I thought I would ask.
    Killing people with logic since 1997 UO (The first true 3D MMO that wasn't WOW.).

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empathetic View Post
    It's not about learning to adapt, **** here, I'm not even going to try to be logical with you anymore, rofl. That's completely out the picture now, I'll just accept the fact that you're an idiot and call it a day. Why do you only quote the parts that you think are relevant? You should quote an entire post before trying to start an argument against someone's post. Who said I was in a pve spec? I have been pvping in MMOs longer than the majority of the people on these forums and this is the first MMO i've seen where a resource to use skills can be completely depleted forever. I have been in the top pvp guilds across multiple MMOs since UO and have been one of the top support/healer players on whatever server I have played on in pvp. This is the first MMO where I have ever complained about the viability of support/healing classes.
    I don't think he is an idiot at all. VK can **** a caster cleric, no question, but dominator isn't game breaking. If you really look at souls, there is almost always a build that is the perfect counter to one type of attacker. However, there is no silver bullet. There just aren't cookie cutter builds.

    Champions have amazing single target dps, but they are the glass cannon of warriors. They can die almost as fast as they make others die. VK is an anti-caster, but the bulk of their abilities are absolutely useless vs rogues or other warriors. Riftblades are much maligned, but the truth is they provide steady DPS with very low burst potential.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CericX View Post
    You've got some basic math issues here.

    Tidal Surge %4 Mana
    Ripple %17 Mana

    Both on 45 sec cool downs.

    Unless you are planning on just blowing your wad and committing suicide this is a bad method for healing 12-20 seconds of a WF. I'd venture to guess that if this is your best method of healing that manadrains are not an issue for you. All that for 80 HP a second (per your l337 math hax *which are hideously wrong as they don't take spell power or spell level or any other aspect of casting into play*)

    If this is not your best method of healing a WF then please explain why you would ever consider posting as an authority?

    Its...like you don't understand that a healing cleric is only good at keeping a single target or two up through pressu....waaaiiit a minute, your not REALLY a cleric are you??

    Alright, right, I get it. You are no longer a viable spokesperson for Clerics as a class. Please stop.
    I was basing numbers off values in game, not off ZAM. With 10% reduction to heals, ripple is 9% of my mana. I have 1523 and ripple costs 133. 133/1523=8.73% (I rounded up.)

    These numbers are based on my efficiency at level 28 and I clearly stated they didn't take crits or spell power into effect. I am an extremely effective healer and haven't had serious mana concerns in WF. I save ripple for the oh **** moments. I never stated to be a spokesperson for anyone.

    I am only trying to make a point that not all clerics are cry babies. Are there challenges for us? Heck yeah, if there weren't then healing PvP would be boring like healing PvE. As it stands, healing PvP is highly challenging and highly rewarding.

    You offered nothing constructive to this conversation. If you are some kind of math genius, then you can feel free to thrill us with your statistics. Otherwise, I respectfully ask that you keep your derisive comments to yourself.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaiusM View Post
    I was basing numbers off values in game, not off ZAM. With 10% reduction to heals, ripple is 9% of my mana. I have 1523 and ripple costs 133. 133/1523=8.73% (I rounded up.)

    These numbers are based on my efficiency at level 28 and I clearly stated they didn't take crits or spell power into effect. I am an extremely effective healer and haven't had serious mana concerns in WF. I save ripple for the oh **** moments. I never stated to be a spokesperson for anyone.

    I am only trying to make a point that not all clerics are cry babies. Are there challenges for us? Heck yeah, if there weren't then healing PvP would be boring like healing PvE. As it stands, healing PvP is highly challenging and highly rewarding.

    You offered nothing constructive to this conversation. If you are some kind of math genius, then you can feel free to thrill us with your statistics. Otherwise, I respectfully ask that you keep your derisive comments to yourself.
    You're only 28, rofl? You haven't run across a lot of VKs/Doms then, so save your no mana concerns until you're a little higher and start getting perma drained.
    Last edited by Empathetic; 03-09-2011 at 11:11 AM.
    Killing people with logic since 1997 UO (The first true 3D MMO that wasn't WOW.).

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empathetic View Post
    You're only 28, rofl? You haven't run across a lot of VKs/Doms then, so save your no mana concerns until you're a little higher and start getting perma drained.
    Are you saying that most warriors at 50 are VK? Because the rest of the population seems to think that champion is the most common warrior.

    You are 100% correct that I have no perspective to PvP at max level. Since the mana drain QQ has started, dominators have become much more popular in the 20-29 bracket. I have encountered mana wrench in every BF I have run this week. I stated how I dealt with it. That is all.

    You are right about not facing VKs. I also wasn't debating them or a cleric's ability to counter it. (It doesn't appear there IS a counter.) I chimed into this discussion based on the mana wrench QQ only.

  14. #59
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    I have to admit I have done this before actually back in last days of beta. I was testing out a build that went pretty far into dominator and pyro. I was minding my own business on a PvE server when this flagged guardian cleric runs up and starts jumping all around me. Cleric was lower level as well so I just kept doing my thing. Well the cleric started to tag the mobs I was killing for a quest so I couldn't get credit then running around me jumping all over the place. So I finally said fine...you want to play...lets play.

    I flag on the cleric and then instant cast squirrel. Improved squirrel did not break on dmg so I used mana wench and sucked the cleric dry. Broke the squirrel and see she popped a mana pot...fairly big one at that because she recovered almost half her mana. Squirrel again and mana wench to suck her dry again. Then started casting cinder burst, followed by deaths edict (stun), then a fireball and a quick flame bolt which proced wildfire. About this time the cleric was hurting with no mana and tried to run towards a cliff to either suicide or try to get away. Lucky for me unbreakable bonds is instant cast and I rooted her right on the edge of the cliff face and was able to get off 3 flame bolts back to back due to wildfire and finish her off with an inferno.

    Now as proof not all guardians are stupid...the cleric was smart enough to not come back for revenge or to mess with me again. Did hear she was down the road a bit so thought I would go pay her a visit but as soon as I showed up she mounted up and rode for a guardian camp
    Last edited by Datku; 03-09-2011 at 12:05 PM.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaiusM View Post
    I was basing numbers off values in game, not off ZAM. With 10% reduction to heals, ripple is 9% of my mana. I have 1523 and ripple costs 133. 133/1523=8.73% (I rounded up.)

    These numbers are based on my efficiency at level 28 and I clearly stated they didn't take crits or spell power into effect. I am an extremely effective healer and haven't had serious mana concerns in WF. I save ripple for the oh **** moments. I never stated to be a spokesperson for anyone.

    I am only trying to make a point that not all clerics are cry babies. Are there challenges for us? Heck yeah, if there weren't then healing PvP would be boring like healing PvE. As it stands, healing PvP is highly challenging and highly rewarding.

    You offered nothing constructive to this conversation. If you are some kind of math genius, then you can feel free to thrill us with your statistics. Otherwise, I respectfully ask that you keep your derisive comments to yourself.
    <---Out the thread. You know not what you speak. Your opinion is NOT valid here. If you WERE having problems at level 28 where clerics are OP then there would be significant concern. At your level you click your heels together and chant while top scoring in WF's. This does not qualify you to have input on this topic. Just like all the VK's and Doms jumping in to defend thier classes and telling clerics how to play .... you just are not familiar with the mechanics.

    I'm also frankly a little concerned that you believe a math genius is required to do basic arithmetic. I'm somewhat more concerned that you think math is going to prove anything to the VK's and Doms defending thier mechanic.

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